Back again, on this episode Fiona speaks to her good friend Giles Paley-Phillips. Fiona and Giles talk about Giles’s 14th book, the fascinating podcasts he’s the host of, how to spark creativity, mentoring, giving back, gardening and how important it is to reconnect with nature, Native American Indian culture, friendship, the personal impacts of trolling on social media and much more.
Giles is an award-winning author, podcaster and screenwriter. Giles' first novel for adults One Hundred and Fifty-Two Days come out in March 2020. Author of several books for children and two adult novels, with a third on the way. His book One Hundred and Fifty-Two Days has been adapted by Giles and Elizabeth Morris for Arclight Films and Future Artists Entertainment. Giles is the writer of six short films for Little Angel Theatre. Giles’ children’s books include The Fearsome Beastie, winner of The People's Book Prize 2012, Heart of Hawick Children's Book Award 2013, Bizziebaby Gold Award, The US Forward National Literary Award and Shortlisted for The Rotherham Children's Book Award 2012. Tamara Small and the Monsters' Ball is shortlisted for The People's Book Prize 2013. He has written several picture books, including Things You Never Knew About Dinosaurs, Princess Stay Awake and a collection of nonsense poetry.
Giles' is co-host and producer of the award-nominated Blank Podcast and regularly writes for Aquila Magazine. He’s also co-host of the ‘A Little Bit of Positive’ podcast with Julia Bradbury and co-host of ‘Things I forgot were good for me’ with Dr Radha Modgil.
Giles lives with his wife and two sons in East Sussex
To pledge for Gile’s next book go to:
https://unbound.com/books/gigantium/
To connect with Giles on Twitter go to:
@eliistender10
For more from Fiona go to:
Fiona 0:15
I am joined by Giles Paley Phillips has become a good mate, mate, friend.
Giles Paley Phillips 0:29
I'm happy with my mate.
Fiona 0:32
All right mate.
Giles Paley Phillips 0:32
Cheers, mate.
Fiona 0:33
Cheers, mate. Yeah. And Giles you have to listen to me droning on.
Unknown Speaker 0:39
Oh, no, the week it's not a drone at all. I love working on your podcast it's always fascinating. I always have lots of takeaways.
Fiona 0:49
Well, that's not for me, that's from guests. But what's interesting is now I put it in the the transcriber thing, it gives me a percentage time that I talk versus the guest
Giles Paley Phillips 1:00
I've never done that before. That's interesting.
Fiona 1:02
It's really interesting. And it's really accurate, actually, you have to get I mean, have to go through and correct some of the transcript. But mostly, it's incredibly accurate.
Unknown Speaker 1:12
They are like I use a, I'd make audiograms for some of the pocket other podcasts I work on and the transcribing software on those is flawless. Literally just, there's the odd like full stop that I have to take out because it's that someone hasn't stopped talking but obviously they've gapped in in the conversation. It's amazing. Like,
Fiona 1:35
yeah, it is amazing. And I do think it's grammar is better than my grammar. But full stops. I don't know where to put - I kind of know with full stops, but when it comes to anything else like and I know where the question mark, obviously. But when it comes to commas, I'm lost.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:51
Yeah, my grammars not great. And obviously being a writer of several books. Luckily, we have two we have editors that can help with that kind of stuff.
Fiona 2:00
How many books have you written Giles?
Giles Paley Phillips 2:02
Oh, goodness, I've got them in front of me, actually. So I'm a terrible suffer of imposter syndrome, I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point today. But so my wife insisted that I put some shelves up above the desk and I've got all my books, and a couple of awards as well up there.
Fiona 2:20
Oh, yeah, just a couple of awards.
Giles Paley Phillips 2:21
There's a couple of awards. Yeah. humblebrag. How many books have I written? I think 13 now, and I've got another one on the way.
Fiona 2:32
I didn't know that. Yes, it is an adult or children's?
Giles Paley Phillips 2:37
It's an adult it's my third novel. So yeah, that's it, you can pledge and you can preorder it already.
Fiona 2:42
Can you? Yes. Well, I did not know that. Thank you send me a link and I'll put the link in the show notes.
Giles Paley Phillips 2:50
Thank you.
Fiona 2:53
Can you say anything about it? Or is it? Yeah, it's
Giles Paley Phillips 2:55
It's another verse novel, so I've done two verse novels with the publisher Unbound, the 152 days, which is kind of semi autobiographical, then a little piece of
Fiona 3:08
152 days or so moving as well.
Giles Paley Phillips 3:11
Oh thank you, that's very kind of you to say.
Fiona 3:11
It's really, really, just like, you can pick it up anywhere and read a bit and it has an impact.
Giles Paley Phillips 3:18
Oh, thank you. That's, that's very kind of you say. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's certainly a lot of emotion. And one of the reasons why I wrote him verse as well, that could be like something you could pick up and just pick out a piece from. And then I wrote a second book called 'A Little Piece of Mind', which is more like a psychological thriller with twists and stuff. And this one is, it's a drama, but it's, it's got a sci-fi edge to it. So it's all set in the near future where there's some sort of like, alien races kind of taken over the world well, and big cities in the world, they've kind of stripped them of their commodities and so people will kind of fractioned off.
Zoom 3:57
Recording in process.
Giles Paley Phillips 3:57
That's okay. And there's lots of civil unrest, and there's like a resistance movement and stuff. And the focus of the main focus of this story is on a boy and his father, who his father's a gardener and like has a horticultural, is a horticulturalists, who is attempting to keep some normality in their lives by continuing to, to to grow vegetables and, and flowers and stuff. The it was kind of inspired by watching like a lot of Channel Four News stories about refugee camps in the Middle East where a lot of the inhabitants actually have gardens and they it's, it's part of their recovery from what they've been through is to have gardens. And I think Chelsea flower show someone did a refugee garden as well, where they had specific plants from that, from that area of the Middle East, and it's very moving to hear about these people that have, you know to get away from the pressures and the turmoil of the of being in a war zone to get into gardening and stuff and how that sort of been something that's been quite healing for them?
Fiona 5:13
That's amazing. I didn't I haven't heard that. And it does make sense. But I haven't heard of that being an outlet for people in refugee camps. But even I think about it, I think when you were talking, I was thinking about one of my dad's best friends moved to Canada and his mum had this garden in Vancouver that was just so English. And it's - She loved Canada, she loved living there she lovely lady, but she she had made her surroundings English. And with a garden, obviously, there are some climate restrictions on what you can do, but you can make it your own world.
Giles Paley Phillips 5:58
AYeah.
Fiona 5:58
And it can be whatever you want it to be and you nurture that and grow it.
Giles Paley Phillips 6:05
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's amazing and gardening like it's not something I'm particularly into my wife loves gardening. And it's like a real outlet for her especially like you know, when it comes round to spring and she starts to replant stuff. And just seeing the garden kind of grow over the summer months and stuff is beautiful. And you know, I can enjoy it in that aspect. But I don't I don't garden particularly much myself, I do a bit of hard graft if you need to do a bit of digging or something.
Fiona 6:34
And building didn't you build a pergola?
Giles Paley Phillips 6:35
We did build a pergola. We did Yes, that was great, actually, I'm still very proud of that pergola. Yeah, and so actually doing that, you can sort of see how much you can get out of that, you know, that kind of sense of achievement, you get from it, but then like, we've we've plants and stuff, that just the joy of seeing them grow. And, you know, obviously the beauty that they can give you and or it could be food as well, you know, that could be substance. So, yeah, it's, I can see the appeal. And I've talked to a lady a little while back, who is a psychotherapist, who has written a book about gardening, it's called 'The Well Gardened Mind', and it was all about the impact of gardening on, you know, on people in various different states. So for example, a lot of people in prisons, if they are allowed to do gardening as part of the, you know, the inmates that are allowed to do gardening, they often come out and don't reoffend. And then there's that thing about, I think they did a study on a bunch of patients who had had gallbladder surgery, and then some of them had a window to a garden for their recovery. Others had like a brick wall, and the and the ones who had the the outlook onto the garden and the nature, they recovered much quicker. So there's all these kinds of interesting things around, like nature and gardens. And, and, and the the act of gardening.
Fiona 7:58
When I was, when I was a teenager, my stepmom was American and she was very interested in Native American Indians and the history of Native American Indians and different tribes. And she bought a load of books over with her. And I read loads of them and looked at the pictures, and I got so interested in the culture. And obviously, it's very different, different regions within the States and within Canada. But, and there were some that were quite savage in terms of the way they operate. But I love the fact that they would, they were at one, really, we're at one with nature. And I guess that's probably true for a lot of that tribes that have been protected from modern life. There's that connection with and respect for nature. I think we all will know it. But it's one of those things we can easily forget in the rush to get on with whatever it is we have to do. So this sci fi book has got the garden as the normality and the Yeah, stability
Giles Paley Phillips 9:20
And hope. Like, yeah, and hope, you know, like, I think, you know, plants and flowers are a sign of hope, aren't they? They're, they're a joy. So I think that's part of it as well. But the story's been split into three parts. The first part is the boy and his Dad is quite focused on that sort of thing. And then the second part is more about a guy called Max who's, who goes out and kind of rescues people that have been in you know, like, if been hit by sort of, you know, this futuristic weaponry or that like in the kind of more wars only bits. He's like a kind of rescuer and then the third bit is more about getting to a refugee camp. So there's this kind of three interlocking stories with, you know, kind of, I don't like to make things easy on myself.
Fiona 10:05
No I was going to say. The thing that I find amazing as well, is it just yeah, just been pootling along with this in the background. I didn't know you were doing it. Yeah, I don't know you do like on a Friday afternoon?
Unknown Speaker 10:22
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it because sometimes, I sometimes forget that I'm a writer, like it, I write all the time in various different guises. But because other things have taken over, like doing podcasts and, and all sorts other things like writing seems to have been like, sort of, you know, it does seem to be like a sideline, you know, in a way, even though it's probably my still my kind of main love and focus. It's funny how sometimes we do that with, with parts of our, you know, creative lives that we kind of, you know, they're slightly become silent. And you don't talk about them as much maybe as well. I've certainly,
Fiona 11:00
Yeah, I think I mean, you are a creative person. And we know that for sure. But I also think it it's a bit like a garden for you, isn't it writing?
Giles Paley Phillips 11:18
Yeah, yeah, I guess.
Fiona 11:20
It's that you nurture it, you grow it, you give it attention. And it gives you a positive space in your brain?
Giles Paley Phillips 11:27
Yeah, it's a really good way of looking at it. Actually. Yeah, I'm gonna use that thing going forward. It's really good. It's a really good analogy. Yeah, so absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, you know, from writing, it's, you know, it's not easy to write. Right? It's hard. It's, it's a, it's a, it can be a real grind. But
Fiona 11:46
And lonely.
Giles Paley Phillips 11:47
And lonely. Yeah, and lonely. Yeah, I mean, I've started taking myself off. I've always been, I've always had notebooks. But I tend to write on a on a computer. And when I started writing, so after this podcast called Blank, and Jim and I, who I do it with, we had, we co-wrote a book together about the themes and stuff that come up on the podcast. And during the process of writing
Fiona 12:09
It's very good.
Giles Paley Phillips 12:09
Thank you, that's very kind. During the process of writing that book, I started taking myself off to a local cafe in town, where we met and had.
Fiona 12:18
Yeah we did.
Giles Paley Phillips 12:20
Yeah - and it's my, it's just a lovely little hub of like, there's lots of creatives in there. I know there.
Fiona 12:26
They love you in there.
Giles Paley Phillips 12:27
They're very lovely to me. And I love I love everyone in there. And I'm going to head down there later, actually. But yeah, and I found that actually working in there, and actually kind of listening into conversations and having conversations with people as well. Even sometimes maybe trying out bits of material on people to a certain extent, without them fully knowing, particularly with nonfiction, it was really good, because I could do that. Ask people kind of about their kind of thoughts and feelings on stuff. But even with writing fiction stuff, I really enjoy just having a bit of kind of background noise and, and being in a sort of hubby place. Obviously, with good coffee.
Fiona 13:09
Obviously,
Giles Paley Phillips 13:09
It really, yeah. That has really helped me and actually that that's where I love to go and write now, and I do tend to write quite a lot of stuff down there until I get kicked out because I've been in there for hours. Stopping on on my second coffee. But yeah,
Fiona 13:27
No, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was gonna say it's funny, because I find that sometimes I look at my diary and I think, 'Ah, I gotta go to London.' And I mean, it's not far for me to go into London. But the thing I know I do well is if I kind of feel a bit stuck on something in terms of work, I sit on a train and that slight buzz of people, I don't travel in rush hour deliberately, the buzz of having people around me picks up my energy and helps unlock the way I'm thinking about things.
Giles Paley Phillips 14:02
I also wonder whether the actual motion of the train helps in some ways. I mean.
Fiona 14:07
Sometimes that makes me feel sick though.
Giles Paley Phillips 14:08
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. It depends on how well you travel. I can sometimes feel a bit sleepy. But yeah, I don't know, like, I think sometimes just doing something monotonous as well. This is slightly different but doing things monotonous can help trigger it as I was talking to. We had the actress Izzy city on the podcast a few years ago and I remember her saying that when she was writing, she would she - There was two things she would do. She would either go and drive her car for a bit just around just to kickstart something or she would play PacMan. She had like Pac Man on her phone. And she was said she would just play that for few hours. And like the monotony of doing that on just maybe just looking at the monotonous patterns on a screen would actually kick her brain into creativity and she'd stopped buzzing ideas and stuff and then it was much easier for her to sit down and write.
Fiona 15:05
When I was doing my MSc dissertation, which was quite torturous, I used to run, I don't really like running.
Giles Paley Phillips 15:14
What's torturous about it?
Fiona 15:14
MSc dissertation, oh my god, where do I start? So I'm stupid in I decided to do about the most ambitious thing I possibly could. And then when the Professor told me there's no way you'll be able to do that in the time given and
Giles Paley Phillips 15:34
You're like I'm definitely doing that.
Fiona 15:37
I was like OK - So tell me, I can't I'll show you, I can. But it, I went and did it but it was, it was a huge amount of what we'd now call data analytics, we didn't make a number crunching and all that stuff, which is good in moderation, but you get to a point where like, and then having to write things up to a prescribed format, in a certain way. I would get stuck and then I would run, and it would unlock my thoughts. And I think basically, if, if I'm thinking about it from a psychological perspective, the pre frontal cortex is where we make judgments and things. But the logic and all that can get in the way of the creativity. And so if you do something that distracts that part of the brain, whether that's providing more oxygen to it by running or doing something monotonous, that's probably why it does that.
Giles Paley Phillips 16:39
Yeah, I like walking, I do a lot of walking. And I've just in the last couple of months started, I did like an exercise bike challenge at home. And I've just carried it on. And I feel really good. I feel fit. I've like lost loads of weight and feel really good. But that's quite nice, just that the monotony of just doing that. And then sometimes I'll actually, it's got a little lip on it, so I can put my laptop on it. And I'll do writing when I'm doing
Fiona 17:05
Oh, that's really good.
Giles Paley Phillips 17:06
Yeah, so I can do stuff while I'm doing. And, yeah, it's almost like in 10, in tandem, I'm sort of doing this monotonous thing, but then I'm sort of churning my brain in some way I don't know is it might be now becoming a psychological thing. And I'm trying.
Fiona 17:23
No I think that, if I actually go back to that dissertation, one of the things that I was looking at is how physical activity impacts cognitive performance. So how increasing oxygen levels to the prefrontal cortex of the brain actually does enhance your ability to solve problems. Whether that's over a long period of time, so you've done exercise throughout life, and therefore has an impact or in a short period of time. And we know that now, but that was like 20 odd years ago. And it's, it makes sense. And I find that when I'm on the exercise bike, I actually said to Chris, at one point, I need to set something up, so I can put my laptop on my exercise bike, because that's when I have all my good ideas. And I'm sat there with my phone writing in my notes, and and it's a bit more tricky. Yes, you sort of like, you know, that you have to get a bit more precise, whereas on a keyboard. So yeah, I think it's great that you do that.
Giles Paley Phillips 18:21
Yeah, it's been really, it's been really, really, really impactful, actually. And yeah but the problem is now I'm doing like more and more hours on the bike, I'm, you know, I'm like, probably do the Tour de France now. But yeah, it's, but it's great. I mean, obviously, like I'm getting physically where I learned and it's helping mentally as well. So I mean, that's you can't ask for much more than that. Really?
Fiona 18:46
I saw your friend Julia Bradbury on, what's it called? ITV News this morning, she was talking about walking.
Giles Paley Phillips 18:55
Yeah, we are something that we've, we've talked about a lot, Julia and I, because obviously walking is a big part of her, her life and actually her career as well. She does lots of shows about walking. And it's it's been obviously very impactful for her. I mean, obviously, the last couple of years has been difficult for her because she had breast cancer diagnosis and has gone through treatment. She's doing really well. But obviously, the walking is still a massive part of her life. And yeah, I think she will continue to kind of advocate for for walking. And and being out in nature. I think those two things are really vital. I think it's one of those things, isn't it that we use, we were saying earlier, when we look we sort of take for granted some of those things. I think during the obviously during the pandemic, we were a bit more aware, we became more aware of, you know, we had those little snippets of time that we had an hour a day where we can have family walks and things and we could really sort of embrace and I think actually, we were lucky that the weather was really good at that time as well as in the first lockdown. And you could really embrace the the beauty and majesty. We have like the, you know, particularly where I live, where we write in the South Downs, you know, it's very beautiful and idyllic, and we've got a coast, you can really, yeah, sort of look at it and sort of see how lucky you are and grateful for that. And it's something I've always been aware of, and I've always been, I do a lot of walking myself anyway, but it was nice to see other people were starting to take advantage of it. But having said that, you know, back into normal, like kind of routines and stuff we do, we've kind of quickly forgotten a lot of that stuff, which is a real shame. I'm sure some people haven't, but I think it does appear that a lot of people maybe have.
Fiona 20:37
It's like, I'm thinking I'm recording this in my little outdoor office. And during knocked down -I'm not a gardener - but with my youngest daughter, we planted lots of seeds. And then we planted them in the garden. And it was next to where thislittle offices, and it was just this pretty mix of flowers. And you'd see the butterflies coming to them and the bees coming to them. And the girls used to just put a blanket out by the flower beds, and just sort of chill out there because it was a lovely space. But on reflection of what you're you're saying is some of the flowers just keep coming up on their own since then. Okay. There's also a huge number of weeds and overgrowth and
Giles Paley Phillips 21:27
Weeds are a pain in the bum aren't they?
Fiona 21:29
Yeah. And I sort of mentioned to someone about my garden, and my eldest daughter, and my husband completely ripped me to pieces telling me it really wasn't a garden anymore. It was just a patch of weeds. And I was like, Well, no, in my head, it's still a garden. You know? It's just the flowers are there somewhere. Yeah, just poking their head through the weeds that sort of Yeah, but I it in terms of what you're saying, I think it's a reflection of what's probably happened to a lot of people is we did put in that time, and attention and appreciation and gratitude for what was around us. Which we get busy and we forget about, which brings me on to actually your podcast with Radha. So the title is
Giles Paley Phillips 22:25
'Things I forgot what good for me'.
Fiona 22:27
Exactly.
Giles Paley Phillips 22:27
Yeah. And, yeah, it's really great. And she's lovely working with Radha. You know, I'm very fond of Radha. She's brilliant, and a fascinating person and very, very smart. Much smarter than I am. I just kind of keep the cogs going. She comes up with all the good stuff in the podcast. But basically, yeah, we talked to we talked to all sorts of people about their either their passions or their jobs. So we've had all sorts of different things on like we've had, we had a lady who's got record, Lauren Silva, who's a clown. That's what she does as a profession. We've had a lady called Davina now who owns her and her husband started Ooney, which is the pizza oven company. So we talked about pizzas and the love of shared cooking and all that kind of stuff. We've had people that do breath work, we've had kindness guy, a guy called Houston, who does, he's trying to get kindness into the curriculum and new air. So lots of different things that about different subjects either. You know, very practical stuff. Like I said, earlier, we had a lady called Sue Stuart-Smith, whose written this book, 'The Well Gardened Mind', which is about how the impact of gardening so it might be like a hobby, or it could be a profession, or it's, it's something more like psychological or feelings that people are trying to kind of, get other people passionate about. And it's things that we've kind of, yeah, let go of or forgotten, you know, from, you know, I've been doing a lot of stuff around authenticity codes and stuff recently. And how actually, you know, when we look back at our younger selves, those what are our authentic things that make us truly happy? And are we still have we still kept hold of some of those things. So for example, you know, me doing lots of exercise. Now, I've always been into exercise, sports always been a big passion for me, but you know, as life goes on, you don't you lose, don't have as much time to do those things. I mean, I used to love playing football, but I got an injury. So there's, there's all those kinds of things. But I know I'm most happy when I when I get to do exercise, I feel better. You know, I work better, all that kind of stuff. And so it's really interesting, looking back at some of those things that we yeah, we let go of as we get older, that actually we need to really kind of go back and retain them in some way. So that the podcast is around kind of those things as well. So yeah, it's a real fun thing to do.
Fiona 24:57
I mean, I love the concept and it's, in my first book 'Defining You', one of the things I encourage people to do, is to think about the things that really lit them up when they were younger. And it seems obvious, in some respects, you kind of look at it. 'Well, yeah, I know. I like that'. But then you think how much you're actually doing it now? There's a really nice values exercise around that as well, actually, where you say, what are your core values? What are the things that matter most to you? And then quite simply, how much do you live in them. And again, it's something really simple and really obvious. But you sit there and you think, Oh, my Lord, yeah, because I did it recently, and I was like, some things were where I would hope they would be like family. And but friends weren't, you know, I really value my friendships. And yet, I do not put nearly as much time into them as I should. Because it's another thing that you know, you get busy. Yeah, other things take over. But actually, it's really important for us as individuals, if, if that's a value that we have, and friendship, probably is to most people, it's something we should be really nurturing and not forget. The other thing I love that was like, in the pandemic, when I was supporting frontliners. between waves, I said to them, 'Right, we're gonna do a plan for when things get really bad'. And, you know, some of the ICU consultants look at me like, 'Oh, my goodness sake, what are you talking about?' But we're gonna do a plan and you're gonna write down who you call, if you feel sad, who you call, if you feel angry, who you call if you feel frustrated. And they're like, 'Really?' I'm like, what you eat, and all these things, and they all sort of they kind of went along with it, thinking it was a bit silly. And then it got to the next wave. And they were like, 'Wow', because we do forget when we're, and when we need it the most the things that you think was so obvious that will I know that if I found my friend, George, he will help me think through how I could see this differently.
Giles Paley Phillips 27:14
We forget. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it's something we're always doing to ourselves, isn't it? And it's, it's simple. It's simple stuff. And we kind of I think we suppose we do kind of know it. But it's sometimes it's not until you actually either write it down or really evaluate those things that you're like, 'Oh, yeah, what have I been doing?' Like, you know, it's not rocket science. But then, you know, we like to say life gets in the way. I mean, it's the phrase that gets used life does get in the way sometimes, and we, those things drop off. So I guess we have to work on them more. And yeah, make the time, like, make the time to contact friends. I mean, I'm like you, I value friendships hugely. And I will, that's one thing I do put a lot of time and effort into, you know, I message people all the time. But even if it's just really, even if it's just dropping a message, you know, like, I think that for me, it's just say, I'm thinking of you, you know, you're in my thoughts or whatever. But what if that helps me, that helps me, you know, because I then I think, 'Oh, that's nice', because I've made that effort to reach out.
Fiona 28:29
But what I find really great is when you send those messages, which always feel like, oh, it's really nice, it feels like someone's like, sent you a burst of sunshine or something. And, but then I it makes me think, 'Oh, I need to message Hazel, I need to message Charlie, I haven't messaged them for a while.' So I think it has it does have a positive ripple effect as well.
Giles Paley Phillips 28:57
Oh, that's nice to know. That is really nice to know. Yeah. And I hope that is the case. And that yeah, I hope sometimes that is like, for some, you know, someone takes something out of that in that way. But obviously I you know, I get something out of it as well, because I get to get a guy I get to reach out to that person and check in on them. And they you know, hopefully they will respond at some point. And that in that is always nice as well, isn't it? So, yeah, I think it's important to do that sort of things. But friendship
Fiona 29:25
Well that brings me on to pro sociality. Because something I think that we have forgotten as a human race, is that actually, we get so much from giving back. And it doesn't have to be if it's duty bound, it takes quite a lot of that away from it. It needs to be something that resonates. But then it's also it's like, you know, we say when you need to look for the things that work for you in terms of, I don't know, what's your hobby. It's the same with how you give back. You need to do it in a way that works. for you, not in a way that someone's told you to do, but in the way that really gives you like, a real burst of good feeling. That's, sort of something we all need to explore, I think and understand. And I find it really weird because with the mentoring app that we're, we've built, and we're sort of building on at the moment, so many people said to me, 'Well, how'd you get mentors?' 'And I'm like 'Well, people want to mentor' 'Do you pay them?' It's like, 'No, people actually want to mentor' and oh, and it kind of defies the logic of how we've been brought up in our culture, potentially. But yet, it obviously taps into people's instincts and emotion, because that's why they are offering to do it.
Giles Paley Phillips 30:51
Yeah. I love I love mentoring, like, I do it with a few people - sometimes they probably not aware. But yeah, I think it gives me such a great feeling, you know, if I can give back a little bit of experience or advice, or just some support. So a few kind words, whatever it might be. That's really impactful, hugely impactful for me as person to know that I might have, you know, helped someone in some small way.
Fiona 31:25
We learn so much from it as well don't we? And I think, you know I was looking at it in respect to healthy ageing. And it's massively impactful for people who may be feeling like they're a bit worthless. They're sort of like, towards the end of their career, and they're like, what value can I add? But it's not only that, so they're sharing their skills, but they're receiving skills back again, because you talk to them, and they're like, 'Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't understand this, this digital sort of approach and, and they talked me through it, and now I totally get it, and I'm using it, and I wouldn't have known that otherwise'. So it's not like a one way street, either.
Giles Paley Phillips 32:07
No, I mean, yeah. Sometimes I feel mentored, like by you know, and often sometimes, you know, sometimes it can be like, my son's, you know, like, my kids telling me something. And I'm like, 'Oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. And so that's' Yeah. So it's nice when it comes back at you as well. Like, when you feel like you've been you've been given some value and validation, I guess it's what a lot of it comes down to, isn't it? It's being validated. And we all desire that.
Fiona 32:38
I think it makes people I think, particularly when people don't have that support. So, I mean, we're assuming that people maybe do have some level of support. But if you take a kid from a disadvantaged background, who has no support, they might be sort of, in this sort of looked at by teacher, they might, but everyone gives them that busy glancing support, rather than really intense, meaningful. And to feel like you're, like you say validated, but to feel like you're seen and you're heard, and you matter. Those things are just, you cannot put a value on that.
Giles Paley Phillips 33:18
No, not at all. I mean, you're absolutely right. That's the seen and heard thing is so vital. And something again, we take for granted, and particularly like you say with young people, sometimes we don't, because we feel like you know, I guess you know, isn't as a parent, we will be situations where we feel like we know best. And actually, if we give the, you know, our kids the opportunity to actually have speak their mind, we could be like, 'Oh, okay, yeah, no, no, you're right. Actually, I'm not. I'm not correct about this particular situation', or the way I'm dealing with it be more helpful if I did it the way you're suggesting, you know, so I think we can all learn in those situations. So actually, always giving people the opportunity to talk and be be heard and like say seen as well. Is Yeah, otherwise we don't, we're never gonna grow either are we?
Fiona 34:10
No, no, totally. And if you don't grow, yeah, well, I mean, life's about growing really, isn't that?
Giles Paley Phillips 34:16
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, what are you doing, you know, like, you're just stagnant.
Fiona 34:24
And I look at older people. And there's this group of people called the elders who I'd never come across until a few years ago. And they was It was started by Nelson Mandela. And it will, it's Jimmy Carter and all sorts of people, Desmond Tutu who have had really interesting lives. And then they fly under the radar almost with this group where they go around the world and share their knowledge and their insights and try and help different populations. And then you see the grumpy old git somewhere or a woman who think they know everything and look miserable. And, and I just think that in past cultures, again, it would have been growing into that elder, growing into that person who's got esteem and is revered for what they've experienced in life. We kind of don't value that anymore. And maybe that's partly why we ended up with a whole load of old grumpy people. I'm not saying oh, well old people are grumpy. No.
Giles Paley Phillips 35:33
Would you say? Do you think people like some people, older people are grumpy because they feel like they've not been seen and heard in the same way?
Fiona 35:41
Yeah, potentially. And I also think I also the seen and heard - and I also think they've closed themselves off to the experience of like, Yeah, I know this, I know what happens, oh, this government's doing this again, oh, this person's doing that again. But they're not looking at - what are the nuances of this? How is this different? Now? How can they learn from it? What can they glean from that situation?
Giles Paley Phillips 36:03
That is what I mean, that's the nail on the head really, with that word, nuance, which, you know, obviously, we've lost a lot of in the last sort of 10 years. Or you could you could argue, from the start of social media. That nuance has been lost in most conversations. I mean, not conversations that we're having not probably not like conversations you have in the street, or in the coffee shop, or wherever or with friends and family, but certainly online, there's no there's very, there's lacking in nuance.
Fiona 36:35
And then that becomes a big proportion of our social interaction.
Giles Paley Phillips 36:38
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're just having binary conversations, I've I'm right, and I'm on this side, you're wrong, and you're on that side, then it's pointless. And few
Fiona 36:50
and even the nice stuff becomes a bit like, you know, because on Instagram, I feel Instagram is a lot more, there's an expectation more around writing, 'Oh, lovely', or,' Oh, how amazing' and all that sort of stuff. But I go to write a comment on someone's and I look and what I'm about to write the person above has already written because there isn't that much you can express in response to a snapshot? Well,
Unknown Speaker 37:18
yeah, and I would say, I hadn't thought about it. But interestingly, I would say actually, if you go on most people's posts, people won't even write, it will just be emojis, it will be a heart emoji or clap emoji. I hadn't really thought about it until you just said that, that probably when I actually comment on people's posts, I only put like heart emojis or clappy clappy hand emojis. I don't even write comments on them. So we've actually come to a point where and I'm guilty of doing that myself. We're not actually even like writing anything. We're just putting a symbol.
Fiona 37:52
But it's also difficult to know what to write. Because, yeah, because you don't know what someone is trying to portray with that image. Unless they've written a lot themselves. Yeah. And when when they have written a lot, the way we sort of consume Instagram, for example, you just scroll through it.
Unknown Speaker 38:12
You just look at the picture and I'm guilty doing that as well, probably just to get it set up. Exactly, exactly. Whereas obviously, like on the, you know, Facebook and Twitter, for example, obviously, it's a lot more kind of dialogue based, or word based, particularly Twitter, then you've obviously then you have to have these factions where you're,
Fiona 38:35
You had a horrible experience with Twitter though before didn't you?
Unknown Speaker 38:39
Yeah, back of the sort of spring of 2022. Yeah, I got I was, like, had quite a bit of trolling and stuff, and not quite low level stuff. But it was enough to like, make me upset me. And I thought, You know what, I don't I don't need this in my life at the moment. So I actually closed my account for about six months. And it was very blissful. But you know, we've all these things, like I kind of dipped my toe back in because, you know, we were kind of addicted to these things, unfortunately.
Fiona 39:15
I also think there's a need when you do things like podcasts.
Unknown Speaker 39:19
Yeah. And I was very aware that you know, yeah, I need to kind of promote my work. And unfortunately, these things are our tools and we know we have to utilise them to a certain extent. But I use it very differently now, I don't kind of I don't interact quite as much as it did before. And I certainly don't kind of seek out any kind of bad stuff that I might find about myself on there, which I think if we all searched our names, we probably see some horrible comments. So yeah, I use it a different way. And I'm, you know, it's fine actually, and I've kind of got an I don't use it as much either which is good. So yeah, but so in some respects, like, you know, I'm not, you know, don't feel bad about the, you know, people troll for all sorts of different reasons, actually that that experience made me have a better experience of using the platform, if you know if you know, I mean, although it was a difficult time and I felt, you know, pretty sad and depressed about it. When coming out the back of that I now have a better experience of using that platform, and I'm a lot more kind of chill about it. I think I probably was too invested in it before. And you know, you spent so much time on these things. So actually, even though it was a bad experience, bad experiences can lead to growth as well, going back to that word. I felt like I've you know, I'm a much more serene person for it.
Fiona 40:49
But isn't that wrong? Do you not think? That you had to go through that experience in the first place? Which is something that wouldn't have happened in a real life situation?
Giles Paley Phillips 41:01
Yeah. And it's, like, say my, the stuff I went through was pretty low level. But I see some people go through horrendous stuff on on social media. And that's horrible and to never happen. Of course, no one should have. No one should be trolled. There shouldn't be a thing as trolling, you know. But it is there, unfortunately. So I guess it's how you cope and deal with it. I'm sure some people don't deal with it very well. And I didn't. So
Fiona 41:28
I don't I mean, I've only had a couple of little things. And I just removed myself like I could not because I I'm sort of bigger than it because it hurts. And I'm not very good at. I'm just not. I'm really sensitive. So
Giles Paley Phillips 41:45
likewise, yeah. Likewise, I'm a very sensitive person as well. And I took it very sensitively, at the time, but I think it's made me I guess, maybe it's made me a little bit more robust. And like I say, has taught me to use maybe I think maybe I was a bit sort of Starry Eyed thinking, oh, you know, because I genuinely put out positive stuff on social media, I probably thought that I wasn't ever going to get any abuse for that. And that was probably a little bit naive of me, to be honest. And I think if you've got a platform of a lot of followers, it's got a good chance, you're gonna get some negative, you know, some negative stuff. And I think you just have to be kind of aware of that. And try not to let it bother you too much. But that I guess.
Fiona 42:34
Some people go into headlong wanting to not wanting to but comfortable positioning controversial viewpoints, in which case, they know that they will get abuse. And again, it doesn't make it okay. But it means that they've gone in with that mindset. If you go in with a mindset where it's more gentle and more positive, and it's not there to be provocative or to be controversial, then I think it's, you know, a decent expectation to expect people to not troll you.
Giles Paley Phillips 43:11
Yeah. So yeah, I mean,
So one of the thing I abused for was, as a lady in the States called Amy Cuddy, who's a psychologist and she said something very nice about my book. I wrote it. And then this Professor in the States, started ripping into my book, which he had no idea what was in it, saying, 'Oh, another piece of pseudo science, blah, blah, blah,' which I felt really sorry for Amy Cuddy, because she gets so much abuse to the extent I think she's even stepped away from academia now, which is just wrong. But I was like, kind of sitting there going 'You haven't even read it? Yeah, it was that is that you say that?'
And that is the thing, isn't it? Often, a lot of the trolling comes from a place of lack of knowledge about the person. Yeah.
Fiona 44:08
This a psychology professor talking about another psychologist. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, I had conversations with neuroscientists and, and all sorts of people that would validate that content. So just think before you jump in with something like that.
Unknown Speaker 44:27
And everyone's allowed to point of view to a certain extent, like, like, if you've, you know, if you're an you're an academic, he's an academic, you're it's okay to disagree on those things. But you can't diminish what someone's written. Because you've like, worked really hard on it and done lots of, you know, lots of work on it. So like, yeah, I don't Yeah, I think it's, it's a slightly bizarre thing. That's,
Fiona 44:54
I mean, it's published by Bloomsbury science. It's kind of in the title.
Giles Paley Phillips 44:58
But yeah, yeah, that's a good validation for it.
Fiona 45:03
But, you know, I'm giving one example of one situation that was enough to set me off.
Giles Paley Phillips 45:10
But it does it does it does send this in a spiral sometimes when someone says something horrible, but you know, I guess, for me, I suppose when like, when it came out of a feeling like low about it, I thought, well look, what what's going on in this person's life that they feel, they need to be horrible. And actually, you start to sort of maybe feel some sympathy towards the person who's like doing that, like, you know, the psychology guy, that you who was sort of rude about your book, maybe he just hasn't had the opportunities that he was hoping he might have, you know, or, or some stuff that he's tried to put out there has not got the same kind of prestige or acknowledgement. And then you sort of,
Fiona 45:55
So I often find that's the case, people that have got a bit and I'm not saying him, because I don't know about him. But I do know, there are a lot of people that will be a bit chippy about stuff, because they're a bit like, you know, in reality, it's because they haven't done so well, or they haven't, like you say, got the prestige associated with something. But back to wonderful year, because I'm interested in this guy, Houston, you mentioned because, you know, you know that I've said so many times before, that you make Twitter, more positive place, it was a place where I kind of dabbled a bit. And then when you were on it more, when I got in contact with you, it was suddenly that became his lovely positive kind environment. And then actually, when you came off it, I think that's when I withdrew a lot from Twitter. And I haven't really re engaged so much, but you do bring kindness to things and you don't let negative situations impact the level of kindness, you then continue to give out?
Giles Paley Phillips 47:09
Yeah, I yeah, I would say that's true. I won't even like you know, what we've just been talking about, at the end of the day, I ended up going from feeling bad to feeling sort of sad for the persons that people that were doing it, I think, like, it's just part of me, like, I'm very, a lot of it comes from being grateful, like I've had some really tough moments along the way, you know, lost both my parents at young age and have had various different other sort of mental health issues and stuff. But I just feel grateful that I am where I'm at. The people that I know, the family, I've got the work I can do. Like, I'm just super grateful for those things. You know, and so for me, it's like about giving back a little bit. And so part of that is trying to be nice, I guess. And, you know, there's some, you know, what's that there's a philosophical question isn't around kindness wherever, like, there is such a thing as a pure kindness, like because the person being kind get something out of it as well. You know, being kind. You know, like, being kind to someone makes you feel good. There's no you can't get out of that, like sending someone a message or doing some chores for someone or pick it up a shopping or whatever it might be whatever act of kindness that you're doing, you get you get a kick out of that as well. So it's it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because then that leads to the woods, the sort of the idea that you're only doing it for a reason. That's not the point, I think is I'm not doing it, to gain any like, it's not to gain any body's favour or to, to sit necessarily get anything in return. It's just something that I it's part of me and I like doing
Fiona 49:13
it think that altruism and the ability to connect with another human being that culture, again, is probably knocked out of us, particularly in the west where we're so individualistic. And I don't mean, you know, I don't think we should all become a collective culture. But I do think we should recognise as a culture more our interdependence and the fact that we are like, you know, I said, you send me a chi message. I, it prompts me to think about who I want to send a message to. And we are all connected and we can't get away from that doesn't mean that people aren't unique and special as individuals, but we are connected And I think even the transaction of thinking, Is there a philosophy? philosophical question that saying, I'm doing this to get something back? You know, in some ways you say, well, that shouldn't even be there because it's basically about being a shared humanity.
Giles Paley Phillips 50:17
Yeah, and I think you're right. I think that level of connection is important to me, like connecting with people is incredibly important to me. And maybe that's this is my way of doing that, I guess on a regular basis. I love nothing more than having conversations and deeper meaningful calls or even just shooting the shed, you know, wherever it might be, that you're connecting with people. One of the reasons why I go down to the cafe to do my work is so I can connect with people and see people so maybe that's just me, I'm maybe I'm just finding a while back. I was I was doing a thing about like introverts and extroverts. And I think as, during the pandemic, again, I think we kind of thought, as a family, we were quite introverted, like, my wife's quite introverted as person, although she does, you know, she does like meeting up with people, but she's definitely more introverted. And the kids really, you know, especially my eldest, he's really introverted. And I thought, well, maybe I'm introverted. And then I started thinking about it more. And I was listening to a podcast that she was someone else, I can't remember the name of the lady who was on it. But she was talking about introverts and extroverts. And how introverts her analogy for it was that if you go to a party, at 9pm, the introvert is saying, I think I'm just getting on a bit, I'm gonna go home, and the extroverts like, where we're going next. And I think I'm definitely a where we going next kind of person. Like, let's keep going, let's keep the party going. So So I think, for all the time that I've thought that I'm an introvert, I'm actually not I think I'm definitely an extrovert. And that's probably again, why I'm desperate for you know, not desperate for connection, but I love to connect and reach out to people. And
Fiona 52:04
I tell you what, there's a psychometric I'm going to do with you, it's called Fire OB, okay, which stands for fundamental interpersonal relationship orientation, behaviour, but snappy, tight, yeah. But actually, what's what I've realised, I think, looking at personality over the years with work and assessing people, and that is, introversion and extraversion are made up of so many different facets, that you can be extreme introvert in one aspect and extreme extrovert in another. And that, and it also depends on it's so multifaceted. It depends on what situation you're in. Because if you're someone like yourself, and I would include me in this that likes to really have meaningful connections. If you took us to a party where it was very superficial, and no one around, were you to connect. Yeah, great. You probably would want to go home at nine o'clock. Yeah. But if you went to a party, and you're having some amazing conversations really rich, you're really connecting with people, you probably want to carry on. Yeah. And so I think there's there's all these, the tendency we have with personalities, and psychometrics is this or this.
Giles Paley Phillips 53:23
Well, I was gonna say sorry to interrupt you. I was just about to say, look, I've created a thing there with no nuance I did a binary thing said I'm this. But actually, you're right. But But actually, you're right. I think there is there probably are situations where we are one or the other. We're not. Or both, you know not, it is no more nuanced than just saying you are an introvert or you're an extrovert.
Fiona 53:46
Well, the one thing I used to do when I was training people in this sort of stuff would be you, if you take person in a snapshot of time, you might see someone and then really quiet and they don't say anything, and they look really shy. And you know, we know that introvert isn't sharpness, but you know, sometimes it's like that. So you say, Oh, they're an introvert. But then if you went and watched them two hours later with their friends, and they're all gregarious, and they're laughing, and they're chatting, oh, it's just it's so multifaceted. But we we struggle to deal with all the sort of information is so we of course we make it binary. Yeah, it makes more sense. Yes. Much easier. Yeah, humans. Were weird law. Well, yeah, we are a weird lot.
Giles Paley Phillips 54:39
That's good, though. It's good to be weird
Fiona 54:40
It is good. It's good and lovely audience that I had on Sunday, which was were hairdressers and I said to them you know, when you're talking to people, you have this amazing opportunity to see into other people's worlds. And that's really cool, I think Really cool.
Giles Paley Phillips 55:01
Yeah.
Fiona 55:02
And you know what you and I get to do that with podcasts as well. It's It's such a privilege to hear different people's perspectives and opinions and
Giles Paley Phillips 55:12
I have learned so much from doing. I just one of the best decisions I've ever made was to starting a podcast, I have learned so much about other people, the world and myself, mainly, you know, Jim and I, particularly blankets are this our therapy session every week, you know?
Fiona 55:30
Well, thanks to you. I've met loads of people through it as well, because people like I can't even remember his name, which is so rude. But I remember him as the ex CIA agent.
Giles Paley Phillips 55:42
Oh, Andrew Bustamante.
Fiona 55:44
Yes. Someone like that. I mean, it's amazing. It's so interesting.
Giles Paley Phillips 55:51
Yeah. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. I loved our conversation with him. And I've loved listening to your work, because it was good, actually. Because fair enough for people that don't listen to other podcasts, I'm assuming, I'm assuming people that listen to your podcast or listening to this. But we had him on and I was just, Jim and I were just asking him, like, very basic questions, you know, like, what is the CIA? And what was great about your conversation was you were talking more about the kind of cognitive dissonance and like the psychological sort of aspects of being a covert operator. So it was really interesting to get a different, you know, a very different podcast, even though it was the same, the same guest?
Fiona 56:31
Well, that's interesting as well, because that's something I found, that listeners probably aren't aware of, sometimes you get a guest, who is so well paired and versed in this subject, that you can't take them off. And so you don't have that same richness of conversation, I don't think and you'll, you'll, you know, sometimes I'll get someone that's been on numerous other podcasts, and I listen to a couple of them, and then they come on. And I'm like, Ah, you're just saying what you said on the last. Yeah. And you try and take them off slightly. But they come straight back to this is what I'm talking about. This is how I'm talking about. There's nothing, nothing wrong with that. It's just I think it's so much more fascinating. When you have someone like Andrew, last Amanda, who you who will allow you to go off at any angle and explore anything and get under the surface of it.
Giles Paley Phillips 57:27
Yeah, absolutely. They're the best guests, you know. Absolutely. And I'm always aware of that as well, you know, being you know, we've any guests we have on we want to kind of venture into areas that they may not have talked about before. We're all looking for something new, aren't we? And that's an it's exciting when you get it.
Fiona 57:46
It's amazing. I love it when someone says, Oh,
Giles Paley Phillips 57:50
I've never talked about this before.
Fiona 57:51
Yeah.
Giles Paley Phillips 57:53
Yeah, yeah. Oh, you look like it was Jim and I were like, looking at Oh, okay, good. Yeah. This is good. But yeah, it's nice. It's nice. And also, you know, that's a validation of how comfortable that person feels talking to you as well. And I think that's always nice. If you can create an environment within your podcast, you know, where someone feels really comfortable, and is able to express themselves properly away from the normal stuff that they talk about.
Fiona 58:18
I'm smiling, because one of my guests, I obviously made too comfortable and he got in a lot of trouble with his family, some of the things he said, like his brother and his Dad. And I ended up to saying to him, 'Shall we just take it down?' So there is there is that, that you don't want people to be to
Giles Paley Phillips 58:39
know, not to start offending people in their own families.
Fiona 58:43
But yeah, I know, this guy. He's quite prominent, and he's like, he's in the public eye. And I thought he wasn't going to say anything to me that he hadn't really thought that would be okay to say, he may not have said that particular thing before. But obviously, it's something I learned from that I learned that, you know, you have to say to people, if you've said anything, if you reflect on it, and you think I shouldn't have said that, just let us know. Yeah,
Giles Paley Phillips 59:08
There is a duty of care, I think, you know, when something we always talk about with our, I guess, you know, like, if there's anything you didn't like, we can take it out or you know, and there's only to be honest, there's only been probably like once or twice that's happened very rarely does and we don't really edit our you know, our shows it's very much like it's a live recording almost. Because we want it to be that raw, organic kind of feel. So yeah, it's we've been really privileged that, you know, people have been fairly open and happy to be taught.
Fiona 59:38
Talk to, very easy to talk to you though.
Giles Paley Phillips 59:42
Well, that's very kind of you to say
Fiona 59:46
Tt's fun, though. It's fun. It's fun, but I'm I am conscious, as I often say at the end podcast, I've eaten a whole load of your time, and I know you've got something a hard stop. So Mmm. It's really nice.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:00:03
No thank you Fiona it's lovely to talk to you again and really appreciate you having me on as a guest.
Fiona 1:00:07
And, you know, I would say to people, please read Gile's books because they are incredibly moving the ones the one that I'm sure is coming out will be the 152 days. Two days, I've because I always get the numbers wrong. And then the one with a really cool cover.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:00:30
Oh, 'A little peace of mind' that one.
Fiona 1:00:32
'A little peace of mind' I love that cover.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:00:34
It's very lucky with the covers. unbounded.
Fiona 1:00:37
The blank is great for like, it just it's one of those. It's a feel good. But it's really interesting as well, because you've pulled out snippets from really interesting conversations and put it into a format that makes it very digestible.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:00:55
Yeah, I think yeah, hopefully. That's how it comes across. Yeah, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's, yeah, there's lots of snips, sort of, I'd say lots of snippets from the podcasts, there are a little paraphrased bits from the podcast, from some of the stuff we've gleaned from our brilliant guests, I think, I think you're in there, Fiona? quite substantially. But yeah, it's kind of a lot of it's about Geminis own take on on a lot of the themes that come up, you know, the various different things or blank needs to people. Because when we started the podcast, it was very much about looking at creativity in the blank moments in creativity. But that literally the first couple of interviews we did, it was apparent that blank meant different things to different people. And going blank meant social anxiety, or grief or loss loss or sleep deprivation, or, you know, anxiety, whatever it might be, it was all these various different things that actually blank meant to other people. So that's what was being fascinated about doing the podcast is that, you know, this sort of overarching idea of going blank is actually quite universal. And it's really interesting.
Fiona 1:02:07
And I've mentioned it so many times when I've been coaching or in talks and things, when, when that sort of topic has come up and say, you're not alone, actually, go and read this book, go and listen to this podcast, which is fantastic. And then the podcast rather.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:02:23
Yep, ‘Things I forgot were good for me’, which we just finished our fourth season. We do that well in season. So yeah, I'll be our fourth season coming up.
Fiona 1:02:33
And you did some great interviews with Julia Bradbury. And I know she's had a really tough time over the last couple of years. Do you? Is there any sign of more work?
Giles Paley Phillips 1:02:48
I think we've talked about doing some stuff together. I don't know if we're doing any more of the little bit of positive. We did two services that but that didn't I'm sure we didn't do any more of that. But I think we've talked about doing some other projects give us she's super busy all the time. Like I just can't keep up with they're so full of energy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I'm hoping at some point we'll we'll catch up with each other and we'll do something together. But yeah, no, no plans as such at the moment.
Fiona 1:03:12
But of course, you're not a writer, or we didn't go on impostor syndrome. We need to do another one Giles.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:03:21
Yeah we do.
Fiona 1:03:23
Thank you so much.
Giles Paley Phillips 1:03:24
Thank you. Thank you, Fiona. always lovely to talk to you.
Fiona 1:03:27
It's so good to talk to you.
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