On this episode Fiona speaks to Michael Kimmel, one of the world’s leading experts on men and masculinities, someone who the Guardian newspaper called “the world’s most prominent male feminist” and who has also been described as a tireless advocate of engaging men to support gender equality. Among other things they discuss what being a male feminist actually means, how men judge men and what is means to be a ‘real man’ as opposed to being a ‘good man’
Kimmel is an Emeritus Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies at Stony Brook University. Among his many books are Manhood in America, Angry White Men, The Politics of Manhood, The Gendered Society and the best seller Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men. With funding from the MacArthur Foundation, he founded the Center for the Study of Men and Masculinities at Stony Brook in 2013. He has delivered the International Women’s Day annual lecture at the European Parliament, the European Commission and the Council of Europe, and has worked with the Ministers for Gender Equality of Norway, Denmark and Sweden in developing programs for boys and men. He consults widely with corporations, NGOs and public sector organizations on gender equity issues.
For more from Michael go to www.michaelkimmel.com
For more from Fiona go to www.fionamurden.com
Fiona
Okay, so today I am very excited to speak to Michael Kimmel. Who is Ooh, you were a professor Emeritus. Emeritus, I always say that wrong. There were quite a few things I say wrong, but that's one of them. So you were at Stony Brook? Yes, I was. I was. Yeah. And so I came across you because ah, well, I mean, long story short, my mentor, Brenda Trenowden, who sadly passed away a couple of weeks ago, did loads and loads of work for diversity on boards globally, so, reading up and being engaged in what she did, meant that I came across your work. And for people listening, the wonderful thing about Michael is, you come at diversity from a different viewpoint and a different angle, which I think is incredibly helpful, because it opens people's eyes, it makes you think, which I think is really important, because otherwise, you're hearing the same thing. And we can tend to switch off to hearing the same thing over and over. But you also offer ways of looking at that in different populations. So I know you've spoken to Scandinavian countries, spoken in Australia. And it is different in different countries, isn't it?
Michael Kimmel 1:46
Yeah, sure. You know, when you start talking about gender, masculinity, femininity, you know, my goodness, there is no one size fits all, you know, there's lots of different variations. Even within the US, of course, you can't talk about one one particular version. There's so many different, you know, by race, by class, by region, by age, by religion, by by height, I mean, there's so many different definitions of masculinity, that we, in fact, in the academic world, we speak of masculinities, plural, to denote all of those. But at the same time, here, at least in the States, I suppose, it's true in Britain as well. There are some models that are held up as the models against which everybody else measures themselves. So there's not just a horizontal, you know, smorgasbord of masculinities, as it were, but rather, there's also a hierarchy of masculinities.
Fiona 2:49
That's one of the things that really caught my attention, actually, was you discussing that hierarchy of masculinity because it resonated in terms of how I see men in my life. So I don't see men as being, I'm lucky that the men in my life are not the what you might call toxic masculinity, or on that smorgasbord, some of the other, less positive. Can you say a bit more about that hierarchy? So within masculinity itself?
Michael Kimmel 3:22
Well, when I first started doing my research, the biggest surprise to me was how important other men's evaluation of men was that masculinity I came to, I started out thinking that the reason that men do all this posing and posturing and pumping up and everything was basically to get girls. And it turns out, that when you listen to men speak about, about, you know, what they're interested in, is, it's it's proving their masculinity to other men. It's other men who evaluate us who judge us this starts when we're very young, you know, when when you're in the, in the playground at 567 years old, and somebody says, well, he's a sissy, you know, or they use some homophobic slur to what to make your masculinity a problem and then you have to deal with it, you have to deal with it by either fighting or walking away or, but you have to deal with it, proving your masculinity to other men is is important. Now, why should it this? I have to say, this kind of surprised me initially, if you want to, but but the truth is, it shouldn't surprise me because women had been talking about this all the time, the power of the male gaze, right, the power of men, you know, to objectify women to, to, you know, to, to, to basically see women in their, through their own eyes and force women to see themselves through men's eyes. So the power of the men so why should it have been different for men, men, men are posturing and posing I you know, I used to say you know, You want to start a fight, walk onto a playground, where where a 10 year old boys are playing happily, and just say, Hey, who's a sissy around here, and two boys will go at it, he is he is he is. Or they'll all point to one boy and say he is he is, and that little boy is going to either fight them, or run home crying, which in their mind proves their point. So this starts very early that masculinity is what we what I call homo-social, it's proved to be in the evaluative eyes of other men. And you don't have to, you know, from who's the sissy on the playground, to that so gay in high schools and universities to, you know, to the whole idea of proving your manhood. And this continues throughout men's lives.
Fiona 5:48
Just while you're talking, I'm thinking as well, is there, for homosexual men, is there a need to prove their homosexuality and how they fit within that persona?
Michael Kimmel 6:05
I think the brilliance of the LGBTQ movement has been to kind of challenge that original notion that in the 1950s, you would if you would have asked gay men, they would say that, you know, the analysis was we're not real men. Right? We're not masculine enough, right, that the, the, the idea of the homosexual as failed man was the common currency. Well, gay liberation, completely exploded that notion, you want muscles you want you want Butch you want hypermasculine take a look at the gay clone as he as he was called, in the 1970s and 80s. Now, I believe that the spectrum of gay masculinities is now so wide as to encompass the hyper Butch, you know, sort of leather man, and also gender queer, you know, non binary men, all across the spectrum. So I think that that's very exciting. Because gay masculinities now are simply masculinities. Although potentially,
Fiona 7:21
When you're, when you're talking now I'm thinking it's actually in many ways, a healthier way to view masculinity, with, with all those different concepts, acts or ways of expressing identity being accepted. Unconditionally.
Michael Kimmel 7:38
Sure. One of the things that, you know, as, as a heterosexual cisgender man, I always envied the critique that the LGBTQ movement had of traditional straight masculinity, which was so rigid, so tight, can't show their feelings can't ever, you know, you asked men, you know, like, you know, what does it mean to be Don't cry, number one rule don't show any feelings? Don't you know? And I thought, like, you know, and hear from gay men, who are saying, No, that's crap. Let's do this. And I thought like, well, you know, that's liberating for me, too. You know, and let me say, as a dad, as a husband, as a friend, you need a lot of emotion, to be able to express it.
Fiona 8:28
I think, I mean, as a psychologist, that the thing that I think is so critical is being able to express it, because the traditional stereotype of masculinity, that's that not expressing emotion is incredibly unhealthy for men themselves. And for anyone else in their lives.
Michael Kimmel 8:48
I know, I've heard so many stories of, you know, couples who were the wife says, Tell me what you feel. And the husband says, Tell me what you want me to feel. And I'll feel it like that, you know, we're not we have been raised to not be in touch with it. We are human beings, we have emotion. We've just not been taught how to express it, how to how to feel it had a and, and enters to feel that feeling what you feel as a sign of our humanity, as opposed to a dis confirmation of our masculinity.
Fiona 9:25
But I still think I'd be interested in your view, but I still think we're away off incorporating that into the stereotypical if you like male identity. And what worries me is the impact that has then on male suicide and all those things we see. It's, it's not really surprising, given that I mean, to an extent it's almost like cutting a limb off when when men or boys because it's saying right, we're gonna cut this bit of who you are off and see how you survive without it?
Michael Kimmel 10:03
Well, I think you know, there there is. There are as you as a psychologist, you would know, I think there is a kind of widespread undiagnosed depression and anxiety among large numbers of men, precisely because they have no place to go. If, if you know, if you ask, I mean, we all need a support network everyone does. Now, if you have a partner, that's one thing, but you can't lead have your partner be the sole support network. So we rely on relatives, we rely on family, we rely on friends. And the thing that's interesting about male and female friendships, is that men and women tend to have very different friendship histories. Most women and I will let I'll ask you this question. Most women, according to the research, have friends as grown as adults, who were friends in primary school or high school, you still have friends from your high school? Does, yeah. Does your husband. Yeah, this is this is exactly what happens. Women. I mean, I watch this in my own family, my mother had had a few friends in high school. And they stayed friends to college, when they got married, they had their kids at roughly the same time, they all these women had two kids one my age and one of my younger sister's age, they stayed together. And the husbands were their husbands kind of became friends, because they all got together as couples, women have friends, women's friendships are go through their entire life, their existential friendships that you made when you were six may still be your friends, when you're 46. Different from men, men's friendships tend to be episodic, you're in you're in high school, and you're on the same football team. And you vow that you'll be friends forever. And then you go off to college, and you then in a fraternity, and you vow that you'll be friends forever in a kind of drunken stupor. And then you go on to your first job, and you make friends there, and you go out for drinks, whatever. And then you move on to a second job, and you don't take the friends with you. Now there's a reason for this. It's not a it's not a kind of feeling. Reason, really, it's a kind of logistical reason. Women do the business of friendship, right? It's the women who remember other people's birthdays, who remember to buy presents for your children's friends, birthday parties, you keep tabs on that, there's kind of, there's a kind of logistics, but maybe we should call it the infrastructure of friendship, who writes the thank you notes, who makes the phone calls, who arranges the play dates, who, you know, that's what friendships are about. And men will tell you, I believe that because I feel this way myself, I have a friend from high school. You know, men will say, we haven't talked in four years. But I know in a heartbeat, I could call him up and we'd be right back where we were. I think that's true. But there's a kind of isolation in those four years. And that's what I think is feeding a lot of the despair that we see among large numbers of men, they have nowhere to go, you can't really make it. And if you believe, as we in the States, or you in Britain, believe in this sort of capitalist model, it's kind of hard to be friends with the guys you work with. Because they may be angling for the same promotion you are.
Fiona 13:46
It's really fascinating. And it's so complex, there's so many layers to it. And it's like you said it's this smorgasbord is a hierarchy as well as can't remember the word cheese but you're going across as well,
Michael Kimmel 14:00
A smorgasbord it it's kind of horizontal smorgasbord and a hierarchy. But, but let me just say one thing theatre because I, I have to say I'm actually today very optimistic about what we were just talking about about friendships. Because I see among my son is 23. And he has friends, boys and girls from primary school still, you know, the biggest change in young people's lives is cross sex friendships. You know, my generation that was a little problematic, you know what their friends are at, but as a result, parents often don't understand when their kids come to them and say, No, Dad, he's my friend and, and he's a boy, but He's not my boyfriend. You know, we have a hard time understanding that, but they don't. And cross sex friendships may be the most hopeful thing for us. Think about it. As a psychologist would you make friends with? You make friends with with The word we use his peers, your equals. Young people have more experience in those friendship networks with day to day interpersonal gender equality than any generation that has ever walked on the face of the earth. This can't help but be good. Right? So I'm quite optimistic, to be honest. Because I see cross sex friendships as really being giving people the experience of what it feels like to see women and men as equals. They take this into the workplace, they take this into their marriages and family lives. So I think that's really important as well.Yeah. Because it's very, I am congenitally optimistic. So I'm always looking, you know, I'm always looking for the possibilities here. For for hope. It's a season of great political despair these days. So it's, you know, I need it.
Fiona 15:57
Yeah, yeah, well, at least, we must say, at least we haven't got Trump at the moment. But who knows what's going to happen there. But besides the political, something that you said there, sparked my interest, of course, as a psychologist, you're congenitally optimistic. So how did you end up being interested in this as an area?
Michael Kimmel 16:20
Oh, I think because the, you know, the women in my life told me, you know, men have to be involved in this. This isn't just a, you know, gender equality is not just a women's issue, quite simply. And it occurred to me that, you know, it's pretty obvious, right? I mean, there's never ever been a reform that women wanted, that men didn't have to support in order to get it. Think about getting the vote, for example, look at what's happening today in Iran, all of these women who are protesting today, what's the difference between now and the last great protest in Iran, is that there are men on the streets with them, supporting them. This isn't just a women's protest. When I believe that, that you know, this, since there's never been anything that women wanted, that men didn't have to support. That means that we have a vital role to play. So what you know, so the question I ask is, then what's in it for men? Why should we, you know, aside from the fact that it's right, fair, good, just and democratic, which is all true, but isn't exactly a motivation. Right? You know, it means, you know, most people that you know, right, fair, good check, okay, and shrug their shoulders and move on. So I want to make a case that it's actually benefits men, enhances men's lives.
Fiona 17:59
And you've done a lot, you've presented, I saw one, one talk that you gave where you presented, the positives that come from that, in terms of if men have an equal share of household duties and childcare, that the impacts are the duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, and there are a huge number of positive impacts both for women, for the children and for the men. Right?
Michael Kimmel 18:25
So so in what we know, for example, in organisations is that greater gender equality is good for the organisation. The more gender equality the more you know, for companies, the more profitable the higher return on investment, the the better their reputation, the better they can serve their increasingly diverse customer base, etc, etc. So we know what's good for organisations making the business case is easy. There's a pile of data from catalysts, McKinsey other other organisations. But I wanted to make a more personal case, why men should support gender equality. And so one of the ways I talked about that was gender equality in the in the home is about not doing the things meant when women talk about, you know, housework or childcare. They use two phrases, each of which has two words, we help out and we pitch in. And I said we should just make it one word and that word to share and the data
Fiona 19:28
Can I add another one to that. And my husband has never used this word, but I've heard friends husbands use it. I babysit. And they're talking about looking after their own kids.
Michael Kimmel 19:42
I know. I remember going to the park with my son when he was little and and somebody said, oh, you know, it's so nice to see men, you know, babysitting, and I said, I'm doing childcare. This is my kid. Right? So So So the data on this, this was a this is in my my TED Talk. So my advertisement is people could go to ted.com. And see my you've done more than one TED Talk. I've done two. I've done two, I did one, one official TED talk, and one TEDx in Sydney, which was about
Fiona 20:19
I've only done a TEDx, it was on it was for London School of Economics, but it was during lockdown. So I wasn't even on the stage. So disappointing.
Michael Kimmel 20:30
Well, there it's very, it's really exciting during the TEDx TEDx in Sydney was at the Opera House. And it was get on the stage in front of 2000 people in that gorgeous space was just amazing for me. And that one was about boys. But the the, the Official TED talk at TED women was was about why men should support gender equality. And I think that's what you're referring to. Because the data there are that sharing housework and childcare for men, is good for our children. It's good for our partners, it's good for men's health, we were talking about that before, that men, when men share housework and childcare, they're less likely to see a therapist less likely to be put on on antidepressants. They're, they're more likely to go to physicians for routine screenings. But they're less likely to end up in the emergency room. They are, they report higher levels of marital satisfaction, they so they're happier, healthier, and healthier. And so the benefits are all all across the way are good, it's good for children, good for partners. So I want to make the case that gender equality is not. You see, I think we get it wrong. When we think of gender equality as a as a zero sum. And that if women when men are going to lose, I think that is a that's the what I would say is the problem. Because I think it's a win win. It's a win for women, it's a win for organisations, it's a win for our children. It's a win for men. And so that's the case that I want to make is that this is really it's good for men as well.
Fiona 22:19
I think it's a it's a really helpful perspective to come from and I when you were talking, I was thinking I remember. I don't know. So I started my career before I went back and did post a postgraduate degree at Accenture, which is a consultancy firm. And it was 75% male in tech 25% female. I didn't have any problem, it was fine. It was never an issue. And I think I had a big brother. So I probably bantered more than I realised and sort of just got on with things without noticing it. But then when I read sort of retrained and I became more involved in psychology and leadership, and I started getting asked to do talks, and when I was asked to do talks to women's groups, it was women, it was only women. So, and I used to, I used to feel uncomfortable with that, because I'd grown up in a sort of with a big brother, and all that sort of stuff. And I like probably quite male oriented things in terms of snowboarding, and surfing and all those sorts of things. But then what I've loved over the years, and particularly over the last decade is doing those same talks to women's networks, women's groups, pro feminism perspectives, there are men there too. And that makes me feel a lot more comfortable. But it also feels a lot more natural. Because surely this is something that we should all be looking at, because we're all human.
Michael Kimmel 23:56
I think I have had somewhat of a similar experience. When I when I've spoken. I've spoken at a lot of companies that are working to you know, toward diversity and inclusion, and, and realise that they're talking to every group, but the men and the men are some sitting around somewhat resentful, like, how come no one's talking to us. So I'm often brought in, you know, and and then you know what, but but, but imagine you're a guy in a corporation, let's take Accenture, you're where you used to work. We're gonna have a talk on gender equality. These guys come in and they are absolutely you know, they're terrified. What what's going to happen? This woman is going to come yell at me for an hour about how bad I am and how wrong I'm doing it and how toxic my masculinity is. So okay, I'm gonna go there, and I'm going to endure this for an hour because I have to, but you know, so they're already like steeled against it, you know? And so I feel like I want to come in and I want to bring the men into the conversation. This is not a conversation with a being nice to the ladies. You know, this is not like women's equality week, you know, and we can get back to the 51 Men's men's inequality weeks afterwards. This is we are stakeholders in this, we will do better. You know, companies know that mix teams now they know this are much more creative. Turns out great minds don't all think alike. You want that ferment, you want that frothiness. So this, so I want the men to feel included in inclusion, but not and not simply the sort of the generic other that that does, it's everybody else. But I want them to know that we are stakeholders in this in this in this campaign, precisely because we will benefit also.
Fiona 25:54
And I think that's really important. Because whilst we may stand by our values, when we see people being treated unfairly, when we're in a position of privilege, which you also talk about incredibly eloquently and use some fantastic examples, but we don't notice we're in that position of privilege. And so therefore, we don't see the benefit of something being different to how it is now. And I think that 'What's in it for me?', however much people might say, you know, it's I'm doing this because of this, this and this. It's actually what 'What's in it for me?' is what motivates us on a short term, daily basis.
Michael Kimmel 26:31
Well, isn't it? I mean, look, we should support gender equality, because full stop, because it's right and fair and just an in democratic, and it goes with all of the values that we profess, full stop. Isn't it nice to also know that it's good for us to? I mean, you know, it's not like medicine that tastes bad, right? It's medicine that we need, and it tastes good. It's so great. It's a bonus. It's not like the I mean, I agree with you. The men's motivation should not simply be because it's in our interest. But isn't it nice to know that it is also?
Fiona 27:13
So that that position of privilege you describe? Well, you've got many different examples? There's one example I think, where you were in a seminar with a group of women. Can you do you know which one I'm referring to?
Michael Kimmel 27:30
Of course, I've, you know, it's funny, this happened, like 40 years ago, when I first started thinking about this, and, you know, the, my head exploded, and it was so interesting, I talk about this in pretty much every talk that I give. I remember this example. And it never fails to move me even in the saying of it, it's quite interesting. It's, it was one of those moments that everybody has them that you know, things pivoted, then you didn't know it, but things were things changed. So the story is how I first became aware of some of these issues. And when I was in graduate school, a bunch of us got together to start a study group in feminist theory, because there weren't any courses yet. So we had a little study group. And each week, 11 women in me would get together, we would read a text and talk about it. And during one of our meetings, I witnessed a conversation between two of the women in the group that changed everything for me, one of the women was white, and one was black. And the white woman said, all women, this is very 1970s. All women have the same experience as women. All women face the same oppression as women. And therefore, all women have a kind of intuitive solidarity, or sisterhood. And a black woman said, I'm not so sure. Let me ask you a question. So the black woman says to the white woman, when you wake up in the morning, and you look in the mirror, what do you see? And the white woman said, I see a woman. And the black woman said, You see, that's the problem for me. When I wake up in the morning, and I look in the mirror, she said, I see a black woman, to me race is visible. But to you race is invisible. You don't see it. And then she said something that startled all of us. She said that's how privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it. It's a luxury for white people to think you know, that race doesn't matter or that they're generic that they're just a woman, just a man. So I listen to this, and I kind of I kind of groaned, I went, Oh. And somebody said, what was that reaction? I said, Well, when I wake up in the morning, and I look in the mirror, I see a human being. I'm kind of the generic person, you know, I'm a middle class white man. I have no race, no class, no gender. I'm universally generalizable, you know, when they say all men are created equal, that's me. Right. And so I think sometimes that that was like the moment I became a middle class white man, that class and race and gender were not about other people. But they were about me. And so that was the my first moment of recognising the privilege of not seeing your privilege. Think about how little how much energy you save, not having to think about these things. Right. And so it's, it is a luxury not to have to think about race for white people. That's what privilege means. You don't have to think about it.
Fiona 31:01
And again, sort of thinking about the psychology with that is a huge cognitive demand, if you're constantly wondering how someone's going to interpret you, what they're going to think of you, how you fit into a group, what that means all those things that when you have privileged, like you say, you don't have to think about but not having to think about it means you can focus on other things, whether that's fulfilling your potential, whether that's daydreaming, when whatever that is, it's
Michael Kimmel 31:31
Right. I mean, you know, this is, and this is so and what we've had, I mean, what we're moving beyond, I believe, and this is, again, a bit of good news, I suspect, what we're moving beyond is this idea that what we have to do is that we have to create diversity by creating a checklist and making sure we have the women we had the gays, we had the blacks, Okay, we're good. That is, what we do is we've we started out by establishing a programme of tokenism. Think about that, I've often thought about the pressure that is put on tokens, because all at the aid nobody sees you as you, they see you as a member of some group only. So the pressure is if I fail me, you know, they say, actually, we tried with them, but it didn't quite work out, you know, so the pressure on them is so much greater. They are completely invisible, as an individual, but they're hyper visible as a member of their group.
Fiona 32:34
Which is so unfair. And I think about one guy that I've coached the last few years, who is gay and a minority in terms of race, and really believes that, you know, there'll be moments of doubt, where he thinks the reason that he's on the executive leadership team of this company is because of that, which then brings in a whole level of self doubt, and questioning as to self worth and whole load of other things that are not actually healthy for anyone.
Michael Kimmel 33:12
Right. Right. And, and he may be subtly reminded of this, occasionally by well, we'll everybody knows the reason you're there, you know, because you have to fill out some quota. Yeah, it's it. And I feel like, I feel like we're developing now I'm hopeful that we're beginning to develop the critical mass that we need to to reduce the pressure of tokenism. If there's more than a few is a but but but a significant number, then the pressure is reduced on each individual as they represent their group.
Fiona 33:51
And I then think that the representation becomes more normal and natural as well. Because if so, this, the second book I wrote was on the neuroscience behind role modelling and, and of social learning. And the pressure that is on that first person as a role model, whether that's the first woman in a position within an senior position within an organisation, whatever that is, is immense. So it takes a certain personality, and sometimes that personality can be something that other people don't want to replicate. And they look at and it actually puts them off because they say, Well, if I need to be like that, if I need to have no kids, or if I need to work those hours, or I don't want to do it. But once there's a level of critical mass that you say to it, whether then it's more of an acceptance and a normality, then you get the breadth of people and characters that enable other people to identify with them. Right.
Michael Kimmel 34:51
So So talk about it from the other side for a moment. Think about the costs to companies for For example, for how they how much talent they lose by people leaving the workplace because it's inhospitable to those kinds of of, of dynamics or because they see what they would have to sacrifice in order to achieve that. So once you have a critical mass, for example, once you have a critical mass of women at the top of an organisation, you won't have client meetings on Saturday afternoon at a golf course, you won't have 7am breakfast meetings, because that's when people get their people, parents get their children ready to go to school. Right. Now, what I want to say, what I want to give to that is, when I'm asked to play golf on a Saturday afternoon, I want to be able to say sorry, mate, my daughter has a soccer match. And I'm going, I'm going to go to that. Or sorry, I have to get my kids ready for school tomorrow morning at seven can't be at that breakfast meeting. I want men to say I'm a parent, right? Bring more of themselves to work. You know, we, we have this idea that we should show up at work and be utterly unencumbered, right, I'm here for you. 24/7 Call me anytime text me, I'm there for you. We say to our boss or supervisor, I don't want to say that. I'm not available all the time. You know, my kid has a crisis. I'm the I'm the cook in my house, I make dinner. Don't call me at five o'clock. You know, and and that. So when men start saying that, it will be a lot take a lot of the pressure off women. Because right now, we're on a team meeting. You're the only woman I say as the team leader. Hey, listen, we have to get together tomorrow morning at seven because we have to we have to prepare for this client meeting. And everybody looks at you. Or he says Is she going to be able to come? I don't know. Maybe she's a mom. I don't I'm not sure. But now, but but when men say oh, no, sorry, I can't come. Right, that changes the dynamic.
Fiona 37:03
Yeah. And I would say I'm very proud of my husband in that respect, because he's a partner at McKinsey, which is quite, you know, brutal in terms of the hours and the ways of working. And in lockdown I've heard him say, quite openly "I can't make that meeting. I'm taking my daughter to athletics. I can't do that. Because I'm taking my girls to school." Good. I am exactly fantastic because it represents that that's okay. It's okay to do that. It's normal to do that. And then if you don't do it, that's your choice. But it is okay to do that.
Michael Kimmel 37:40
It when it does, in a funny way. You know, we're talking about gender here. But what it does, is it D genders parenting, parenting is something parents do. Men and women fathers and mothers and others that, you know, and I think I think that that it takes it shows other men, that's acceptable. Here's a partner saying that. And secondly, it takes some of the pressure off women, because the women then say, you know, I'm not the only one who's feeling this way. I'm not the only one who has to do it this way.
Fiona 38:19
It's so complex. And I mean, again, thinking thinking for myself, I think about when I first had my first daughter who's going to be 16 in December, and I ended up working for Chief Execs of to one FTSE 100 and a big insurance firm called Lloyds of London in the UK. And I was working directly with the Chief Execs and the leadership teams. And I did not and this was now I'd left my company. This was for myself independently. I never mentioned that I had a child. I never talked about being a Mum. And I got to a point where I and it's interesting because I don't know how much it's society changing how much it's me just going "Puoff! Do you know what I am what I am now." But I will now I'm very I have done for many years now sort of quite happily said, "Oh, no, I've got you know, I've got to do school pickup, or I've got to do this or I've got to do that." But even as a woman, I was hiding or shielding the fact that I had that part of being a woman because probably because I didn't want to be seen as different lesser, I didn't want to be disregarded or devalued.
Michael Kimmel 39:34
Or you didn't want to be the problem. Right? Having been pulled elsewhere makes you a problem makes you less reliable in their in their eyes. And you know, I mean, so so so we think a lot about the costs to women, for not for not being able to show up fully to not being able to talk about these. But um, but earlier we were talking about the cost to men is the kind of silent depression, despair, the kind of feeling that they have nowhere to turn when they have these sorts of things, you know, I mean, you know, and let's also talk about the other side of this for a minute. It's not simply having children, which is, of course, really, really important for in our identities, but it's also having ageing parents, you know, a lot of us have to take care of elderly parents or navigate their health, their health care and navigate their trips to doctors and medications and things like that, as our populations age, were in the generation that are taking care of ageing parents and young children, right. And so, you know, a lot of a lot of guys really, I, in my experience, feel, you know, just pulled in so many different directions and have nowhere to talk about it.
Fiona 40:55
Yeah, if and then that feels wrong. And comes, brings us all the way back to round to, the issue with mental health and, and suicide. But what I was gonna say, there are so many things, I've got pages of questions for you, Michael, and we haven't got that much time left. Um, so something that I heard you say, in one place, so you asked men what it means to be a good man, in contrast to being a real man, can you tell us a bit about that? .
Michael Kimmel 41:30
Sure. Um, I started, you know, this was my response, kind of to talk the idea of toxic masculinity, which I don't particularly use a phrase I don't use and don't especially like, even so, I started asking in workshops, I ask men what it means to be a good man. And I think this is in my TEDx Sydney talk, I think, and in the in what I am, what I would get, when was it mean to be a good man, you know, at the end of your life, they you people said he was a good man, you know, what does that mean? And most of the time what you get from men, when you ask them what it means to be a good man is responsible, ethical, do the right thing. Honour, when I asked this at West Point, Military Academy, honour duty, you know, sacrifice. One of the hallmarks of of masculinity of good masculinity is so to speak, is to sacrifice for your family. Right? So yes, I hate my job. And I hate my boss, and I hate the commute, and I hate all of it. But I'm doing this for my family. And so that's part of being that's good man, what it means to be a good man. So, and one guy said, look, it's the Judeo Christian ethic, you know, it's do the right thing. Stand up for the little guy. Be brave, be honourable. Okay, fine. So that's what it means. And I asked, Where are you? Where did you learn this? And they say, well, it's everywhere. It's our culture. It's it's the Judeo Christian heritage. And I said, Okay, fine. Now, tell me if those are the ideas. Those are the values that show up for you honour, duty, sacrifice, caring, responsible responsibilities to man up, be a real man. And then this Oh, no, no, that's completely different. Well, what does that mean? Don't cry, be strong, be powerful, get rich, get laid, get you know, all of those, you know, Never show your feelings never show weakness never back down. And I said, Well, where did you learn that? And they say, typically in order, my dad, my coach, my guy friends, my older brother, okay. That's the part we were talking about before the homeless sociality, we learned that masculinity, what it means to be a real man from from other men. Right. So what I want to do is I want to have a converse, I want to have a conversation with men, about the ways in which we exist. We have both of those ideas in our heads at the same time, what it means to be a good man, and what it means to be a real man. And I think every man, you can ask your husband this story, this question. What Tell me a time when you were asked to, to, to sacrifice what it means to be a good man, in order to prove you're a real man to other men. When was the time you betrayed your own values about what it means to be a good man was at the time someone was getting bullied in your high school and you and you quote, didn't stand up for the little guy that you turned away that you ignored it. Why? Because they would come after you if you stood up for the little guy. So so how have we and I think men have the story of when we have betrayed our own value. US, in order to appear to be real men, in in the eyes of what are you a faggot, that would be the kind of response, you support this. And that fear of other men is what silences us. So I want so and I believe having a son, I have to say, this is the kind of story that I feel like we have to tell our sons, we can't talk to tell them just how awesome we are, we have to tell them also about the time we betrayed our own values. So here's my bottom line on this. I am not interested in men, living up to my idea of what it means to be a good man, I'm interested in them living up to their own, to what it means to to so how do you silence or mute the voice that of the real man to enable the voice of the good man, you can't do it alone, you've got to have other men support. Why? Because it's other men who promote the real man idea that silences you. So we need to we need to develop, we need to develop those mechanisms of support among men, so that we can feel it feel okay, and secure when we mute the real man language in favour of the good man language.
Fiona 46:23
It's all such powerful stuff. I'm conscious that you are now Emeritus said it right that time didn't I? So we're losing you to some extent? Well, I mean, I'm conscious that you're still active in terms of things like this. But what can we take forward? What can we pass on to your son, my daughter's that that is going to give them something to work with? So those messages, yes, but is this is a tangible action that people can take?
Michael Kimmel 46:59
Well, you know, it's a funny thing. I, you know, on the one hand, I feel like we can be honest about these sorts of questions and in our own lives, and how, how we, uh, we, ourselves were had those moments of betrayal of our own values. And, you know, think those kinds of have honest conversations. I think we can, we can, but I, and, but But I think, let me give you an analogy, I think a lot of times, companies are doing things like having mentorship programmes, to enable, you know, sort of older senior people to, you know, to sort of support and encourage those below them to follow paths, and, you know, steer clear of minefields, etc. I think we can learn more from young people.
Fiona 47:45
So reverse mentoring,
Michael Kimmel 47:47
I'm interested in reverse mentoring, if I'm, if I'm a senior executive at age 70. And I have a, I have a young 30 year old, he or she is so much more experienced with navigating the world as it is right now than I am, I need some help dealing with all of these different, you know, non binary people and, and, you know, a different different races, and religions and ethnicities, and all, all the people who are coming into the workplace today that I was not prepared for when everyone looked like me. So I feel like we need to develop reverse mentoring programmes in companies, precisely because I think we learn more from young people than they learn from us at the moment.
Fiona 48:33
Do you know, I mean, that's music to my ears,
Michael Kimmel 48:36
I just want to say, I just want to say, imagine how valued the younger colleagues will feel when older colleagues come to them for advice and support.
Fiona 48:47
I mean, it's absolute music to my ears on many levels. You don't know that I do loads of work on mentoring. But reverse mentoring is so powerful when you hear people in senior positions, say, I cannot believe how much I've learned, or even when it's not reverse mentoring, and you take someone in a senior position who is mentoring in the traditional sense, and they'll say, "Do you know what I learnt so much from my mentee". And I think that cross generational thing is absolutely critical, because it helps again, it helps build that critical mass but in a different way, in a different direction. But it also helps educate us because as a population that may not have grown up with the same acceptance of different views and diversities and just liberal. Yeah, I think it's, oh, I agree with everything above everything.
Michael Kimmel 49:44
Well, it's a good way to end I think it because it is
Fiona 49:46
it's fantastic. I mean, I just absolutely love everything you've said, I think people are going to really, really enjoy listening to you. If they want to find more about you. You're on www. Michael kimmel.com, I believe right?
Michael Kimmel 50:02
Yeah, exactly.
Fiona 50:04
And are you on Twitter or anything like that?
Michael Kimmel 50:06
I don't use Twitter very much I have to say. And no, that's the easiest way, just, you know, through through the website.
Fiona 50:15
And you've gotten, you've written a number of books as well.
Michael Kimmel 50:18
Yeah, so the the most recently, the book, the book that would be most interesting, I suspect it's here is there's there's to this guy land, which is a book about young men 16 to 26, sort of from late high school, through university and into their first first career sort of post adolescent, but not quite yet fully adult, emerging adulthood, or emerging adulthood or adult, the lessons or, you know, whatever you want to call it. So guyland is one and, and then the other book that's most more recent, is angry white men. And that's that book i That book was published initially in 2013. And the name Trump was appeared nowhere in the book. And so what I feel like I began to profile was his followers, before he showed up to lead them, you know, what was going on that kind of stuff that kind of, of ferment and anger, anger that was building up among white men, that resentment that we were talking about earlier.
Fiona 51:21
And I would, I really would recommend looking at those particularly, I've particularly found your views on that fascinating. I've looked at it from a role modelling perspective, and that need to belong, where men get pulled in or two groups or gangs or, but you've given it obviously far more insightful from a sociological perspective and understanding the masculinity and that need to be the real man rather than the government and in effect, actually, and to live up to that expectation.
Michael Kimmel 51:53
And that's a conversation internally among men between being a good man and a real man. It's not, you know, and it's better I think, than the kind of toxic unhealthy masculinaty. Yeah, no, I
Fiona 52:05
agree. I think it's because it's not critical. It's just saying, how would you categorise these two? And which one do you actually want to live up to?
Michael Kimmel 52:13
And mostly, I want men to live up to their own values, not mine, not yours, theirs? This is what they say.
Fiona 52:22
Yeah, absolutely. Michael Kimmel, thank you so much for your time. Thanks so much for your thoughts and your insight. I really appreciate speaking to you.
Michael Kimmel 52:32
Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you too.