On this episode Fiona speaks to Patrick Foster, former cricketer and recovering gambling addict. Gambling addiction is a dark and interesting world, one which is made yet darker still because of the social undesirability. Patrick says ‘I spent £4m on gambling and my betting addiction almost killed me, yet I told no-one’ highlighting the secrecy and shame associated with what is as much addiction as drugs or alcohol. Leading what he describes as a double life, Patrick fought a secret gambling addition for over 12 years, causing him ‘trouble and pain in ways I could never have imagined.’ Patrick explains how he gambled at every opportunity. And because he gambled, he lied, and he stole. He stole from those close to him as well as from those he barely knew. He even stole money intended for charity
Fiona explores how gambling became a drug for Patrick. How the biggest thing for him was learning how to show his emotion, the importance of self-awareness. Patrick now works for Epic Risk Management which was formed in 2014, when the CEO of the company had ended up in prison, having attempted suicide, and stolen £434,000 from his employers, which was one of the world's biggest banks to fund his gambling addiction. Whilst he was in prison, he recognised that actually, he wasn't the only person who had suffered from an addiction of this kind who must have done things like he had done and ended up in the situation that he was. Patrick says that he realised that there were a lot of organisations that dealt with people once they'd kind of fallen off the cliff but that there weren't enough trying to prevent it in the first place. Patrick explains how gambling carries such stigma that what they try at his company is to try and break down those barriers and ultimately allow people to make more informed decisions, to understand how to spot signs in themselves and probably most importantly what to do if they do need help.
Patrick’s book is called - Might Bite: The Secret Life of a Gambling Addict
Fiona 0:02
So today I am joined by Patrick Foster, who is an author, a new dad. You were a professional cricketer, I believe? Why don't you tell us a bit more about who you are?
Patrick Foster 0:31
Yeah, well, firstly, thanks very much for having me on. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. So as you just said, I was a former, well, I'm a former professional cricketer, I spent a short period of time doing that. Also a former insurance broker, an independent school teacher. But I guess most significantly, for the majority of my adult life between the ages of 19 and 31, I was suffering from a pathological gambling addiction in secret. Like so many things, it was something that honestly started as a bit of fun. As I started at university, it became a habit, a problem, and in the latter days an addiction, an addiction that I had no issue whatsoever recognising. It's so obvious from the things I was doing, the situation I was in, my problem. I think like so many people who battled problems of this kind is I was actually just too embarrassed and ashamed to do anything about it, I was so obsessed with what other people might say or think. I didn't know where to get help. And I honestly didn't think help was possible. And now, having been in recovery for the last four and a half years, having received the help and treatment that ultimately I needed, and deep down wanted, I now use my experiences of addiction to help raise awareness of the issue, educate people through my book, but also through the work that I do day to day.
Fiona 2:09
And the company you work for. Tell us a bit about that.
Patrick Foster 2:13
Yeah, so Epic Risk Management was formed back in 2014. And in extraordinary circumstances, when the CEO of the company had ended up in prison, having attempted suicide, and stolen 434,000 pounds from his employers, which was one of the world's biggest banks to fund his gambling addiction. Whilst he was in prison, he recognised that actually, he wasn't the only person who had suffered from an addiction of this kind who must have done things like he had done and ended up in the situation that he was. And realised that there were a lot of organisations that dealt with people for want of a better phrase, once they've kind of fallen off the cliff or the edge of it. And there weren't enough trying to prevent it in the first place. And gambling is an interesting topic, because something and I'm sure we'll touch on it, they are so ingrained in culture and society so normalised now and yet, still a bit of a dirty word, and still carry such stigma. That actually, what we try and do is try and break down those barriers. And ultimately, hopefully allow people to make a bit more informed decisions about whether or not it's something they want to be part of their life, but also if they're doing it, what to protect them, what to do to protect themselves, how to spot signs in themselves, if their relationship ever changes, or probably most importantly, what to do if they do need help.
Fiona 3:50
It's such a complex phenomenon from not only a psychological perspective, but the social construct of it, like you're describing that shame and embarrassment, what we build our personal narrative to be. But then there's also such a complex narrative around gambling itself, like you describe and I know if I think about my personal reflections, I remember playing the fruit. What's it called?
Patrick Foster 4:19
Like a fruit machine? Yeah.
Fiona 4:21
When I was on ferries with my stepdad when I was about eight or nine and my mum pointing out I needed to be careful. And I just remember that really vividly in your “why do I need to be careful because I'm playing a game”, but it's, it's always I think, partly because the seed was planted at that age and I kept an eye out for it. I've always found it fascinating. And I've always worried about people who do it. And my cousin used to be a croupier and he travelled around the world and I always used to really sort of struggle with that because I was thinking, Is he okay, is that okay? Doing that and what does that mean? And that's a very naive bystander’s perspective. But that's one person's perspective. And I think it's not something we talk about, I don't go around, I don't think I've ever had that conversation with someone saying, this is my view of, of gambling. I know that when my husband consulted a gambling firm, I felt really uncomfortable about it. And it wasn't because I think gambling itself is bad or wrong, but I worry about the impact it can have on people's lives. But I guess that's with my psychology hat on, it’s an addiction in the same way that alcohol is an addiction, or drugs or any addiction. And it's something presumably you will always have. And actually, if you think about food disorders, it's something that people will always have a vulnerability to once they have gone down that road. Do you think that's true of you? And gambling?
Patrick Foster 5:51
Yeah, absolutely. As you say, it's, it's so complex. And everybody's kind of relationship with it is so individual the motivations for doing it? And I think for me, definitely one of the things with gambling is, for me, it was from a very early age, it was like a perfect drug for me being kind of super competitive. It was all about winning and losing. And that was something in life that I kind of craved. And it gave me that instant response, instant reaction, that gratification. But going back to the original question, I think what I never understood when I started doing it was the implications that it can have, the consequences that it can have. Because in my mind, well, addiction is drugs, alcohol, smoking, it's substances that you put in your body that affect your physical health. But one of the reasons I do what I do now is that actually, it's understanding that these behavioural addictions, and you alluded to food there, these things have an impact on your physical health, maybe, indirectly, when it comes to gambling, but on your mental health. But just because it's not a substance, it doesn't mean that the consequences aren't as bad. And I had no concept of that whatsoever. And I think actually, people are naive to just how addictive gambling can be, the addictive nature of some of the products, and that's the kind of discussion in itself. But actually, for some people, it is just like, taking a drug, like taking an ecstasy pill or drinking alcohol. And I never had that understanding whatsoever. And of course, now I've been through what I have, I can relate the two and I can see it but actually the whole time I was gambling I viewed it differently. And then kind of to add to that, I think one of the things that is really difficult about it is and one of the motivations for me writing the book and sharing my story so openly was that I just had a fundamental issue with the fact that people's reaction to me having a gambling addiction, or people having a gambling addiction was so different to that of being a drug addict or an alcoholic in the sense I often think if people have issues with those things, people feel sorry for them. If you're a gambling addict, everyone thinks really, why did you do it in the first place? Or why didn't you just stop? And if it was that simple, then people would. But actually, it's not. And I think that's just down to a kind of lack of understanding awareness and an ignorance of the whole situation. And I think I would have found it much easier to reach out for help if I'd had more accepted addiction.
Fiona 9:07
And I'm thinking as well, the frameworks of looking for help are easier in that instance, because we all from a young age, I think not in any one particular way but because it's on the television, on films, we know about Alcoholics Anonymous, so we know by nature of the fact that it is on all those films that somewhere there's going to be an Alcoholics Anonymous group near us. And we know that if someone's a drug addict, they go to rehabilitation. So again, is that I guess the social narrative, the what's weaved into our day to day life is we do understand those things. But we don't, you don't, I don't if I became addicted to gambling. I wouldn't know where to look. Well. I would now because I'd probably speak to you but you know, I think and the thing that really resonates for me as well is this prevent one piece because I think the prevention is around educating, yes, but it's also about equipping people with the tools, the routes, the frameworks, to be able to reach out to find a stopping point, or to understand and recognise the point that they're at earlier on. And know that it's acceptable, that there are people that can help, that there are frameworks that can help that. I was reading one of the reviews on your book, for example, and you go back to six years of age, I think when we're talking about where things began, do you honestly, and I'm not doubting that it's true, but do you honestly see aspects of who you were and how you were at that very young age that could lead you into the path you went down?
Patrick Foster 10:51
Yeah, I, I do in the sense that I think I was always very aware of a very addictive personality. And in many ways, I don't like that. But it kind of sums up what I'm trying to say, in the sense that whenever I wanted to do something, or achieve something, I wouldn't let much get in the way of it. I was very obsessive, pretty compulsive. And actually, as a young person, I kind of channelled that in a way that meant I was quite high achieving. And, but in the back of my mind, I always saw having this type of personality as a bit of a weakness because people say, Oh, you got such an addictive personality. And actually, I realised now if channelled in the right way, it can be a real strength, but it does mean that you're more vulnerable when it comes to addictive substances and behaviours. Because I could see it with my relationship with not just gambling, but other addictive substances and behaviours. And of course, now I, I understand why. But I think it's really important that people have that awareness that if they do have that kind of character, it's about learning to manage it from a young age, but also understanding that if you are, if you do then decide to do X, Y, or Z, then potentially you are more vulnerable. And so I think that's where for me, doesn't mean that everybody who's got those kinds of personality traits, is going to become an addict or suffer from an addiction, but I think they are, they are more likely to and when I had come out of my, my treatment, and during it to an extent, I did quite a lot of reading, research for want of a better term around addiction, because I wanted to kind of work out well, why me and there were so many theories that kind of, you're born with it, is to do with the nurture between certain ages, its circumstances, trauma, it's all these things. And there were all these different kinds of theories. And it really kind of fried my brain because I thought to myself, well, actually, I believe it's a combination of all those things. And I look at my story. And I think, well, actually, if I put all those little bits together, it now makes sense as to why I had an addiction. But I think you can become quite hung up on which, which part of it. And I found it really difficult to comprehend this idea that the reason I had a gambling addiction was because I was born with it. Because I think the problem with that is if I had gone down that route, I think I'd probably go back to it because I could attribute blame to something that wasn't me. And it would mean that oh, well, I don't have to take any responsibility for this because, well, it's not my fault. I was born with it. So therefore, there's nothing I can do about it. Actually. I now know there is. So yeah, it's incredibly complicated. But I think what I did learn is that it was going to be very difficult to find the exact reason but it was going to be a combination of all those things.
Fiona 14:25
I mean, what you struck upon there for me more broadly in psychology is there are lots of different theories. There are lots of different treatment options. And one of the things I always say to people who are going to a clinical psychologist not in the context of addiction, but in the context of struggling in any ways. Look for someone who uses a range of approaches, because if someone's tied to one theory or one approach, it might be helpful to one person in 80% of their situation but someone else in 20%, everything actually is a combination of factors between them, nurture, nature, genetics, epigenetics, what situations you've been in, which gambling situations you've been in, and how each of those were additive to the situations you were in before. And so, so many different factors that come into play, I think. And I would struggle with saying, and I'm not, as I said before, I'm no expert on addiction whatsoever. But I would struggle with the idea that we're born with it, because so much of who we are is shaped constantly, even as adults. So it's basically saying you're born, that's who you are, give up, takes away that sense of control, it feels like what you're describing is almost the perfect storm before in terms of all those factors coming together. And then I do think that with anything, once we see something, or our brain experiences that a certain way we repeat it, it becomes like a loop. And whether that loop is a loop of worry, or it's a loop of behaviour or habit, whatever you want to call it. And unless we have a conscious awareness of that, and we make a decision to try and change that, our brain will quite merrily keep on doing it. Yeah, absolutely. And something, something I struggled with was, and I hope he doesn't listen to this he might do, a friend of mine, was involved in the creation of Candy Crush, and I had a problem with that, because it's such an addictive game. Now, I don't know if anyone got so addicted that it became problematic for them. So maybe I'm being judgmental in saying that it worries me. But you mentioned, you alluded to earlier that the way in which gambling is set up plays on to an extent, and I'm putting words into your mouth here, but plays on the vulnerability of the way we know the brain works. Do you see that playing out more across digital mediums than it potentially was in the more traditional sense of gambling?
Patrick Foster 16:55
Yeah, absolutely. I think gaming through the work that I do, I talk a lot about the convergence between gaming and gambling and the fact that actually, there's a lot of crossover between the two nowadays, and one could potentially be a gateway for another. But I think, in this kind of digital world that we all live in, these products are addictive. They are, they're actually designed to be that way. And that's why I've got an issue with this because it's, it's essentially, it's a strong word, but it's essentially kind of grooming the next generation of addicts. And it is very different to perhaps when you do it in a kind of more old fashioned sense, there was still plenty of people that were addicted to gambling. But I don't think it happened as often or as quickly as it does. So yeah, I have huge concerns about this kind of digital world. And actually, it's not just gambling, it's, it's gaming as well. I use silly examples like that. You just mentioned games like Candy Crush, I don't gamble in any way, shape, or form. And I've now and I've never been a gamer, but things like during lockdown I, I would play things like online Scrabble, and I would find myself becoming kind of addicted to that. And then suddenly, there was this temptation that you could buy a credit, which means that you got these cheats, that meant that you were more likely to win and all this kind of stuff. And I could just see the way it was kind of impacting my brain. And obviously now being so aware of that I just removed myself from it and say, actually, I don't need that temptation. But for a lot of people, you just get sucked in. So yeah, I think that is a huge concern. I think the other thing with gambling, and this is why I do a lot of work with young people about the advent of online gambling is the kind of virtual nature of money, because money doesn't feel real. When it's online, when it's kind of Monopoly money, if you like, it's just the number in the top right hand corner of a complete computer screen, you quickly lose all real value for that money. And I write about in my book, and I talk about it all the time. I lost so much money in casinos and bookmakers physically but never as much as I did online because the money was actually tangible. And it actually had an impact on me because actually, if I had lost 1000 pounds worth of cash, I could see that, I could, for want of a better phrase, feel it. When it was onlineit just, it doesn't feel real until suddenly it's gone. And I think I hear so many stories about these young people now who say, Well, I didn't realise how much money it was because it is literally just the click of a button. And that's, that is concerning. And why it’s so important that more is done to kind of protect people. And part of that is the responsibility of the industry. And part of it is responsibility of the regulator, the government, but also there does have to be personal responsibility. And it is, is the responsibility of the individual, but actually being aware of that is important in the first place. Because if you don't, it's harder to make those choices.
Fiona 20:40
Yeah, and I'm thinking the thing I struggle with is very, very minor, compared to what you're describing, but think about social media. And I struggle with the fact that the responsibility for social media for young people is often put on the parents, and parents don't fully understand that social media, because they haven't grown up with it. They don't understand how to interact with it. Children are children, teenagers are teenagers, they shouldn't have to be fully responsible for those things they’ve got enough to cope with in terms of growing up. So I do, I do have an issue that it's, it's an I think comes to your point is, yeah, we need to raise awareness, and then it helps people to make informed decisions, and we need to educate people. But I do feel like the regulator needs to take a bigger part that I feel like there are ethics that are at play here as well. And I think particularly with, I mean, I worked as a Chief Science Officer for a startup. And I fell out with the chief technical officer, because I was saying, if we build in some of these things, we're creating persuasive technology. But we're doing it for commercial means, we're not doing it for the good of the individual. So therefore, it's unethical. And that person said to me, well, and you won't be able to say who it is I'm just thinking of now, because I haven't said which company it is. I dig a hole for some, they said to me, but there's no law around it, there's no legal requirement. I said, it's not about whether there's a legal requirement, it's about whether there's an ethical requirement, if we know what we're doing, we have to put those guardrails in place to start with, if that's what we're talking about, just technology, there in the terms of a usable product that can actually help someone in some respects, because it's partly psychologically based. What about something that's only for the gain, really, of the person who's selling it, which is what you're talking about when it's gaming? Or whether it's gambling? And the weight of what you're doing with people's lives is immense. I mean, does that, because I get angry, I get angry as a psychologist looking at it from the perspective of social media. Does it make you feel cross? Well, how? Or is it something that you've learned? to challenge the work? You do help? How does it make you feel? Um, what's your response?
Patrick Foster 23:07
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question. And I guess, it's a combination of all those things, really, there's an element of me, sadly, that has kind of accepted that, that's what happens. Therefore, I need to do what I can about it through the work that I do, and to kind of make people aware of that. There is also an understanding, I'm not stupid, I recognise that there are a lot of people that do these things that we've talked about, and, and don't have a problem with it. And it does play a part in their life that it's ultimately set out to do which is provide a form of entertainment, fun, they are able to kind of self regulate it and be in control of it. But where I have a fundamental issue is surely more needs to be done to protect those people that can't. And I believe now that not enough is being done when people are in that situation, because I think now that these organisations, companies, whoever it might be have the knowledge to be able to know when somebody is doing something to access or beyond means of control. Are they doing stuff about it? Yes, maybe are they doing enough about it? Absolutely not. And so that's where I get kind of the resentment comes out of me. And don't get me wrong. I think there have been small steps and there has been progress, but not enough. And I'd like to think that what happened to me it's happening to people but it's less people but the difference is that I think historically, people like myself were taken advantage of, through certain schemes through all sorts of things, which I think they're slowly putting a stop to. But at the same time, is that enough? No. And I am not anti gambling. It's hard for people to believe. But I'm also prepared to put my neck on the line and say, is enough being done. Now, is there enough social responsibility now? Is the regulation fit for purpose? No. And that, that does need to, that does need to change. But for as long as people wear this commercial hat, where it is just all about making as much money as possible, those things will continue to happen, sadly.
Fiona 26:02
It’s sad, but great that we have people like you raising awareness and talking about your own story. And if you think about your own story, so we talked about when you were six, mentioned that you were a professional cricketer, how did, how did your addiction play out? So you mentioned that you started, did you say at university, you started.
Patrick Foster 26:24
I mean, gambling hadn't been part of my life, really, until I was 19 years old, in any way, shape, or form. It just, it wasn't like the world. Now you, you didn't get exposed to it. So unless somebody in your family did it, or a friend did it. It wasn't kind of as readily available. Just wasn't part of my life. And then I got introduced to it at university, I think I probably would have found it myself. But I got introduced to it at university. The first bet I ever placed myself was a winning bet, which I think in itself had a massive impact, especially being the type of person I am. And I was, I certainly wasn't addicted to gambling immediately. But I use the term hooked, because that’s what hooked me in and I definitely wanted more. And I will never, I will never forget that moment. Because actually, I can never explain the feeling it gave me and ironically, I'll probably spend the next 12 and a half years trying to replicate that feeling unsuccessfully. But from that moment onwards, gambling was part of my life, and it remained constant throughout it. The thing about my addiction and how it kind of played out and manifested itself was that gambling, over the course of time due to things that happen in my life started to play a different part. So for instance, that time it was money I could afford to lose, it was a form of entertainment. It was fun, I enjoyed it, there's no getting away from it. And then a year later, when my cricket career finished, and I got released, I got sacked, lost my contract, that moment in my life had a profound impact on me. And I really, really struggled. And I never really appreciated it until further down the line. But it was at that point that gambling then started to play a different part of my life because it started to replace playing sport. Because it would give me a rush of bars that would give me that competitive fix that I've alluded to. It also was a form of escapism, because deep down I was really struggling. But when I was gambling, and to an extent drinking, I didn't really have to think or worry about anything else. And so it became medicinal from that moment onwards. And so that was kind of the next stage. And then when I went into London, it kind of continued that way. There was more financial motivation behind my gambling when I was in London, because that was kind of the culture and environment that surrounded me and I kind of rode that, that wave when you are an insurance broker. So I worked in, I worked in the city, so I worked out of the Lloyds building. Oh, yeah.
Fiona 29:25
I've seen you've been, really? I was advising them. No, okay. Yeah, I was, I was working with the chief exec at the time, Richard, wild eyed, he's, I don't know if he was there then. All right. Okay. But it's, it's definitely an environment that encourages you to look at money and wealth. It's just that sort of environment. And it's also I mean, I would go out for lunches with people that would last hours. Yeah. And I'd be like, Oh my god, this is so old school. This is the sort of thing that happened in the 1980s but it's still happening in the insurance industry.
Patrick Foster 30:00
Yeah, and drinking and gambling was just part of the culture. So I did it like everybody else. But I think I saw it as a kind of way to make money quickly, or more money quickly. And then of course, in 2010, when I won a life changing sum of money one night, that's where it flipped again, because that's the point where I believe that it then just became like a drug for me, because I not only did I think I was invincible, but actually, I thought at that point, every time I did it, this should happen. And I tried to, a bit like a drug addict will need to up the amount that they're doing. Every time I gambled from that point, the intention was to win that amount of money or more than that. And it didn't happen, of course, I lost and then I started to get myself into a real difficulty financially, but also emotionally. And then gambling seemed like the solution to get out of that problem. And it was just a vicious spiral. But throughout it all, it was very definitely a kind of a coping mechanism to deal with. Anything that was anything but perfect in my life, if that, if that kind of makes sense. I was, I was somebody that. Yeah, whenever I was faced with any problem, any challenge, any form of adversity, was below, I'm not going to face this head on, I'm not going to talk about it, I'm going to refuse to accept it. And I just combated that by gambling, and other things.
Fiona 31:48
I'll come back to the other things in a second, what struck me there's a number of things. I've been scribbling away notes, I've got lots of things to ask you. But one thing that strikes me is you were doing what most people will do, because we're not brought up to understand how to deal with the way our mind works. And I say that from the perspective of having studied psychology for years, but still can work myself out, still like what's going on. I've worked with all sorts of different things. But there's a guy who's been on the podcast a couple of times, and I don't know, if you've come across him, he's called Dr. Russ Harris. And he wrote a book called The Happiness Trap. But what I love about it is, it’s based on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, but that word acceptance, and what you said there, as you refuse to accept, now, I don’t think there was anything wrong with you doing that, because we’re taught, almost refuse to accept because we’re taught to fight, we’re taught to get on with things, it’s like, you know, if you’re feeling this way, then just try a bit harder, or, let's not cry, you know, and ’particularly for a boy brought up in a certain way. So we’ll just put it away, put that emotion away and get on with it, go and do some sport. So we’re almost encouraged to work in a way that is against the way our brain needs to work. And we’re not taught actually, to accept painful emotions and thoughts and feelings to not just not accept them as and ignore them, which is this massively complex thing about trying to explain behaviour, but to experience an emotion and go, that's not very nice, I can observe it, I can see it, I can decide what to do with it, and I can move on, we're not taught how to do that. So actually, all you were doing is what we're taught to do. And you were doing it particularly well, which actually, in some ways became your worst enemy. What are your thoughts on that? Because presumably, having gone through rehab, you must have looked at not just the theories that were about why people become addicted, but how you deal with your own brain emotions, behaviours now. What sort of things have you come across in that sort of exploration?
Patrick Foster 34:07
Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was actually showing emotion. My default was to kind of, there were certain emotions that I didn't believe it was acceptable for me to feel or show. And actually understanding that everybody has those, and actually, it's perfectly normal, and actually needed to display that emotion and then it's okay to feel those ways and everything that I was, ever done, and it seems, it seems so weird to say when I was doing some of the things that I was doing, but actually, everything was motivated by the fact that I realised I came to realise during that time that I wasn't perfect, and that life wasn't going to be perfect. But it was an inability to accept those things. And I just used to suppress all emotions. Anger, I didn't think it was kind of acceptable to be anger, angry. So I just internalised anger. And I got angry with myself and therefore, again used addiction as a way of being able to, to outlet I didn't think showing vulnerability was acceptable, I thought it was a sign of weakness. As you said, I'd been told kind of through my life, to get on with things and kind of man up and I was very definitely a product of my environment, like a boarding school environment, professional sports environment where, where it is, or it's changed, definitely for the better, but where those environments historically were, get on with it. And now I'm just at peace with those emotions doesn't mean that I find them easy to manage, I still have a difficult relationship with some of them. And I still don't always manage them perfectly. And I still have a tendency to go back to old ways with some of them. But I have a much greater understanding and awareness. And that's kind of how power and strength and recovery I believe, because it allows me to manage it day to day, doesn't mean that suddenly I don't have those emotions, or I don't feel that way. But I'm equipped to manage it. And my way of managing it is not just to run away and use something to deal with it
Fiona 36:51
It is a journey. And I think it's even harder though, when it's unpicking stuff that's been laid in. So pathways, neural pathways, ways of operating behaviours, beliefs that have been laid into your brain. As such as you're growing up, and then probably reiterated, in some ways through what you were doing. It's like the reinforcement of winning, it's the same sort of reinforcement of being able to hide from those emotions. So I mentioned to you before we came on that I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a recovering addict, but recovering from being a drug addict. And I often talk to him and he has so much debt, and I feel his pain. But I also always come away with such a sense of improved understanding of people, and the way we think and the way we operate. Because one thing that I observe is when people have been to, I mean, one of the worst places, so you describe the CEO of your company, he tried to commit suicide, because it's one of the, it is one of the worst places you can go to. But yet, the wisdom that comes out of it is so rich. And it's not to say you, you live a blessed life, because you don't, because actually, you've got a lot of things that will be harder than most people, because you've got to be a lot more aware. And through pain that wisdom comes but only with the right direction and support and understanding. I mean, because it's easy to say that but we go to California a lot and I see people wandering around, so many homeless people who are clearly off their head on something or other and you think what's easy to say, but they can't just go and clean themselves up. It's not. It's hard. If you live in a privileged environment, I think it's probably even harder if you're living in that sort of environment. Yeah, you find that you've been to with the organisation you work with. There must be some fascinating stories, but also some fascinating wisdoms in terms of how people have understood their own journeys.
Patrick Foster 39:16
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I always say to people I wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. I really would. And the place I got to in 2018, as you said, it can't really get any worse. But what I do is I have to take the positives from the situation and what I know is I'm much stronger for it, and I'm fundamentally a much better person for it. I just wish I couldn't have all the things that came with it hadn't happened and what I've done to other people hadn't happened as well. But I think what it has given me an understanding of is people talk about therapy and counselling and that's ultimately what I had, and what I did. But I kind of wish I'd done that. And I wish people did that without having to have an addiction or be at rock bottom or be suffering or struggling with something in order to turn to it. Because ultimately what it is, is, it's just a way of learning how to understand yourself better. And in order to manage life and navigate your way through life and everything that life throws at you, you need to be able to understand yourself and what makes you tick and what doesn't and, and that's ultimately what it was. The one thing going back to your question about the kind of people that I've met in my own recovery, as you say, I'm lucky to work with a number of recovering gambling addicts, or who've had their own journeys and kind of inspirational in their own way, the one thing it has taught me is that everybody is so different. And that everybody's journey is totally different, not just how they got there, but also how they recover. And what works for one person might not for another. But again, it's ultimately, what they do. And what they are all in a position is they have a better understanding of who they are, and are better versions of themselves. And day to day, that's all I try and be really, but I think, and I hope this the world and our approach to therapy, counselling does change. Because actually, it's something that everybody should do. Because it's, it's so powerful. But for as long as people think it's only ever something that you need, or should do, when you're in a position like I was, which, of course is what I thought, then we're never gonna get to that point. But that, that is, what's incredible about it is all it does is give you a better understanding of you and how you can manage life.
Fiona 42:13
It's interesting, because I did, I did my psychology degree, with the aim of becoming a clinical psychologist. And then I did some clinical not properly because I wasn't qualified, but as an undergraduate, and I thought, I can't, I can't cope with this. I'm too screwed up myself to be helping people every day. So I went into business. And I went into management consultancy, which was totally not me, I went back to psychology, but by that time I had business in so I thought, well, I'll combine that and do the positive side, I looked at sports psychology. But I ended up doing, working with leaders simply because they were populations I'd been working with in consultancies, and it kind of all fit together. But leaders mostly do, there are some leaders who do not, but mostly just want to know more about themselves. And as an executive coach, you're there doing that, or as an Organisational Psychologist like I am, you're there doing that. But even though you sort of see high performance athletes more and more now, using sports psychologists, you see leaders using psychologists, there's still this stigma attached to it and this misunderstanding of what it means. I'm not counselling those senior leaders, I'm helping them to understand them. And it's actually the same as counselling, except I'm not equipped with being able to follow through on the clinical side. And if someone does get really bad, I hand them off to another professional. But everything you say there about that self awareness, that self understanding, it's something that we never stop, we have to keep learning about ourselves through life. And it sounds quite daunting on the one hand, but on the other hand, but I think and maybe I'm biased, because what I do, that's massively exciting, because it means we've got to put it on one thing you said, and I could see, I could always see myself being at risk of becoming addicted to things. And I actually deliberately avoided things for that from that perspective. So I never smoked when all my friends were smoking. But that doesn't make me an angel. It just means that I understood that bit of myself. I love risk. And so I love snowboarding and I love backcountry snowboarding so I like going up just anything and down anything I can, more rocks the better. Bringing this back to you rather than about me. One thing we haven't mentioned is that risk factor and the adrenaline factor and that adrenaline factor surely comes when someone's bowling towards you, you know the balls coming at high speed towards you and you're performing as a cricketer. Is that an element that you think put some people at a greater risk of being addicted to anything is that desire for that rush whether that's adrenaline rush, whether that's a dopamine, dopamine rush, whatever that is.
Patrick Foster 45:05
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that is definitely something that was huge for me. And, and I understand now that ultimately I tried to replace what sport gave me and what I was getting from sport. And those kinds of hits those rushes, those, the dopamine, the instant response in some gratification that you get from teammates, etc, I started to replace that by gambling, because gambling gave me all of those things. Actually, what's interesting about being a gambling addict is it becomes over time, it becomes less about money, because ultimately, once I was addicted, I didn't really care. Of course, you want to win money because you're in debt, or you want to do something with it badly. I ultimately didn't care about the money, it was whether I could have another bet or not. And actually, it wasn't the outcome, it was being in the fight. That was the drug. So actually, when the ball landed in its position on a roulette wheel, that was just whether or not I'd won or lost whether or not I could have another bet or not. It was the bid. Whilst it was spinning. That was the drug. That was the exciting bit. And sometimes, actually, it was a relief when that balance was zero, because it meant I could stop. And there's no way of doing it. But I also know from my relationship with, with other things that when I couldn't gamble, I then turned to other things to try and get that as well. So drink. Actually, my relationship with drink was very much a drink, basically, to forget about everything that was going on with gambling, but certainly, and I'm not proud of doing them. But certainly when I did drugs, it was that it was trying to get something, that rush, that buzz. And I like you just alluded to, there's lots of things in life that I still crave that from, but I find it now in ways that ultimately aren't going to have a fundamentally negative effect on my physical or mental well being. And actually, there's ways that you can access those things that have a positive impact on those things. And having that understanding means now I kind of go and look for it in different ways. But also understanding that those things need to happen in moderation. Because I'm a big believer that too much of anything's not good for you.
Fiona 47:53
Yeah, I totally agree. And I was thinking while you were talking, one of the things that my husband finds slightly strange as do my daughter's. I'm conscious of time. So I am going to wrap up, but it just is I love reading academic psychology papers or neuroscience papers. And they are all like what is she on. But on the one hand, that's great, because it's the way that I can lose myself. And I don't have to think about what I'm feeling at that time. But even that can become problematic, because there's a limit, I think, and if your it becomes, if it takes control of you, whatever it is, you've gone over that limit. And it doesn't matter whether it's something that's less as it were so massively, massively insightful. Your book is called, Might Bite and it's based on the first horse, no the horse you lost on is that right? That made you think I need to go and get help?
Patrick Foster 48:49
Yeah, that was the name of the horse that I put, I won't ruin the story, but put an extraordinary amount of money on because it was a matter of life and death. For me. I'd said to myself, if that horse wins, I win all the money back. And I had the intention of paying everybody back. I know now that wouldn't have been the case. But actually, that was my intention. If it wasn't, I was gonna go and do the unthinkable and it didn't win. But I won't ruin the story. But I'm still here to tell the tale. And that's, that's what it's based on. And also, I think is quite a nice play on words unintentionally, because gambling might well bite.
Fiona 49:29
Exactly, and so people can find you on your website, which is
Patrick Foster 49:37
epicriskmanagement.com is the organisation that I work for. And then we work across all different sectors and industries. My focus is mainly in education and sport, but as a company, we work everywhere and then I've got my book and I'm on the normal social media platforms of my own small following.
Fiona 50:00
So yeah, I will put your handles underneath in the show notes as well. I’ve loved talking to you. I have a list of questions. But I will have to leave those for now and let you get on with your day. Thank you so much for talking to me. And thank you for sharing a bit of your story with us and I encourage people to go away and read Might Bite to get a bit more of an understanding of you and your story.
Patrick Foster 50:27
Thank you and thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Fiona 50:36
Thanks to my guest. Thanks to you for listening. If you want to find out more about me and my work, go to fionamurden.com or my social media handle is also Fiona Murden. If you enjoyed this, please do subscribe, review and tell your friends it'd be a massive help. But for now, goodbye and I hope you have a great week.