What if the simplest way to change your relationships - and even your life - wasn’t about saying the right thing, but listening in the right way? It’s not just how we listen that matters. It’s why. In this powerful episode, Fiona sits down with Christian van Nieuwerburgh, professor of coaching and positive psychology, to explore how listening can be one of the most radical acts of human connection. Drawing from his new book Radical Listening, Christian shares how truly hearing someone - with presence, curiosity, and care - can make them feel deeply seen and valued.
Christian reveals a game-changing insight most people overlook: every time we listen, we bring an intention. Maybe to fix something. Maybe to understand. Maybe just to connect. But unless our intention matches what the other person actually needs, we miss the moment.
We can be kind, empathetic - and still leave them feeling unheard.
Drawing from his book (written with psychologist Robert Biswas-Diener), Christian introduces six distinct listening intentions - learning, understanding, solving, appreciating, connecting, influencing - and shows how choosing the right one can transform relationships, trust, and connection.
This isn’t just theory. Fiona and Christian share honest stories about when they got it wrong - and what it taught them about emotional intelligence, ego, and psychological safety. From leaders in the workplace to partners at home to fleeting interactions with strangers, this episode makes a bold claim:
Radical listening - when done with the right intention - is one of the most powerful relational tools we have.
And one of the most underused.
Whether you’re leading a team, raising a family, or just trying to build better connections in a noisy world, this conversation offers something rare:
A framework for listening that doesn’t just improve communication - it changes the way we are with others.
For more from Fiona go to:
Christian's book is out March 25 2025
For more from Christian go to
Practical Take-Aways from the Podcast on Radical Listening:
Matching Listening Intentions:
Before conversations, pause and consider: What does the other person want from this interaction?
Acknowledgement Techniques:
Quieting Inner Dialogue:
Practical Listening Experiments
Connection Strategies
Fiona
I'm very thrilled to be able to share more from Christian van Nieuwerburgh. Dr, Christian van Nieuwerburgh could you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Christian 01:07
Thank you so much, Fiona, and I'm like you. I'm just so excited at the possibilities of all the things that we could talk about. So thank you so much for inviting me along to talk about something that I'm pretty sure is a shared passion between us. Yeah, a little bit about myself that's relevant to this conversation is I am part of the time an academic Fiona, so I'm at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. RCSi, it's a University of Medicine and Health Sciences, and my title there is professor of coaching and positive psychology, two of my favorite topics. That's pretty lucky when I'm not doing the academic role. It's, it's, it's because I'm so keen Fiona on practice, I'm just obsessed with, how can we take all the learning that's coming from many, many different fields and apply them in our lives? So that's my main concern. And of course, my areas of interest are coaching and positive psychology, so I like to spend a lot of my time reflecting on what we're learning from these fields, and they how they might make a real difference in people's lives. So when I'm not in my academic role, I've got my own consultancy. I'm not really sure what it does, but, but it's called coach on a motorcycle, and people can find me if they just look coach on a motorcycle.com, and what I'm trying to do there is exactly what I talked about, make things accessible, give things away for free based on the latest things that we're learning from the fields of coaching and positive psychology.
Fiona 02:55
Absolutely wonderful. And another shared passion, I try and give things away for free. I don't know how many people actually want them, but I try and give them away anyway. So, you were introduced to me by your writing partner, colleague, esteemed colleague, Robert Biswas Fiona. Robert has been on the podcast, also, okay, and you have written a book together called Radical listening, and this I am fascinated to hear more about. So, it comes out. I believe in May, is that correct? It's
Christian 03:35
coming out March the 25th the numbers kind of emblazoned in my mind, and Fiona, you know, the opportunity I had to work with Robert Biswas deaner on this that's, you know, one of the highlights of my professional career. I mean, you've had him on the show. You know how smart he is. He's such a sharp thinker. He's so well informed. He knows about all of the research and positive psychology particularly. And it's interesting how this book came about Fiona, because Robert and I used to bump into each other at conferences globally. So we'd be in Sydney, or we'd be in Rosenheim, in Germany, or in London. And because we have shared interests, especially around the integration of coaching and positive psychology, we'd bump into each other Melbourne, for example, as well. And so that was happening regularly. So throughout the year, I'd meet up with Robert. Every time we met, we'd have these really engaging conversations. And what I really liked about talking to Robert, you know how he's a positive provocateur, so he would challenge my thinking, and that's what I need to learn. So I really appreciated those interactions. The pandemic comes along, and. And suddenly all of that dries up. So there's no more conferences. There's no more bumping into each other. And that's when I reach out to Robert to say, hey, you know, I really used to like these conversations. They're not happening right now, and he was up for it as well. So we just set up these weekly meetings, where, for like, an hour every week, I'd say, this is what I've been thinking about. Robert would tell me what he's been thinking about. And that probably was the start of our collaboration. And that eventually led to us thinking, Well, is there something we'd both like to share, and also a project where we feel that together we can write something that individually we're not able to write. And that's where we came up with radical listening. It wasn't called that when we started. We were just thinking our thought process Fiona was what is it that we know, Robert and I through our professional lives in the fields of coaching and positive psychology, but also through our roles as executive coaches. What are the things that we know that might be helpful for a broader audience? And that's where we thought, you know, coaches are trained to listen in the way, in ways that lead to professional and personal growth. Coaches are trained in a way to listen to people that makes them feel more comfortable, that empowers them, that shows that we value them, and we thought that learning we want to share more broadly.
Fiona 06:46
I absolutely love that, and I think it's so true. I often think myself, things that we learn as psychologists and as coaches are immensely helpful skills that if we could teach people more broadly, and that doesn't mean that everyone has to become a coach or everyone has to become a psychologist. It's those ability, those those skills, like you said, to give people the space and to make them feel good about themselves and to really be good humans. Oh
Christian 07:21
yeah, thank you, Fiona. What a beautiful word. I'm glad the good human phrases come in already, because essentially, you know, at the heart of it that's that's really what radical listening is about, is interacting with one another in a way that's respectful and makes us both parties, both the listener and the person being listened to, really feel better about being human. So I love that idea of this is really about connection. And the subtitle of the book is The Art of true connection. And I just want to say something about where that title came from. So we were commissioned to write a book about listening, and the title came later, and I might say something a little bit later in our conversation about why we've called it radical listening, but essentially, we wanted to talk about and share the idea of listening. And so, yeah, I'm not sure exactly at what point, but we had to come up with a subtitle. And Robert said, You know what? I'm going to put a few choices on on LinkedIn. And he sent it out to people, and just asked people. He said, here's six possible subtitles. We discussed them with the publisher, and it was a landslide field. It was a like 78% or 82% something like that. Picked this one subtitle, and that subtitle was the art of true connection. And, you know, hearing that subtitle. And seeing how popular it was, it really brought it home for me about what are we actually writing about? And it actually sharpened our writing gave us a real focus for look, this is about, how can you listen to people in a way that strengthens connections and ultimately strengthens relationships as well.
Fiona 09:23
And I love the word connection. I in my in my first book, I've I've written something that I call connection characteristics, yes, but when I was during the pandemic, I ran a course where I had some really quite senior people from around the world on this course, as well as people who I would describe more as everyday folk who weren't aspiring to be senior leaders. I was worried that when we got to this bit of the course, that they were going to go, Oh, come on. We know this stuff. You know? We know. How to do these things. But actually that was one of the parts, if not the part, that resonated most with people. And I think part of it is connection is a beautiful word, because it's bi directional, it's not sort of hierarchical. It's it means so much we talk about how when we are connected, or when we feel disconnected, and it yet it it seems so simple, but clearly it meant a lot to a lot of other people, if that was that landslide sort of result when it came to the titles or subtitles,
Christian 10:40
that's right, Fiona. And I think in your wonderful example there, if you were saying it happened during the pandemic, right that course. And I do think it touches on a hunger that we have for connection, and in a world that sometimes feels very disconnected, where there's conflict, where there's sides that are not listening to one another. I do think there's this genuine hunger for connection, and so really, you're right. When I got that subtitle, I just thought, you know, this is why this book is important, and it really galvanized us. And, you know, we've tried to create the best book we can, because we think this could be so helpful at an individual level, but maybe even organization or organizational or even societal. So we have high hopes for the book, and I'm just so grateful to you, Fiona, for being curious and interested about it. I'm
Fiona 11:51
so curious about it, and I find it interesting because I totally agree that we have this hunger for connection. But what my observation has been having really honed in on this since I moved to a different country, so I suddenly felt incredibly disconnected to a degree I had just not expected. So it's become more and more important to me, and I've really been focusing over the last year and a half on this particular aspect of being human. I find myself included, that a lot of people, whilst we have this hunger for connection, we don't realize and so if we had to write a list of priorities, yes, of course, relationships come top. So for example, as I said to you, in Los Angeles this week, this will come out at later date, but this week, we've had the terrible wildfires. What do people want? They want their people and their pets. They want them to be safe. That's connection, that's relationships. And yet, in an in our everyday lives, we don't prioritize relationships, and it gets lost under other things. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that and your observations on that.
Christian 13:12
Thank you, Fiona, you've touched on a number of things there, and I'm really very sorry about what's happening, what has happened in Los Angeles and California? It's just such a it's a difficult time, and you're right to observe that at times like this. You know, that idea of people coming together and connecting is so important, you've reminded me of, you know, I want to share a bit of a personal anecdote here, or story, if that's okay with you. Fiona, so you know, this quest for connection and being valued and belonging, I think you talked about moving countries. I've had that as well. And you know, interestingly, you know, I was born in the Middle East in Lebanon. My mother was Japanese, my father was Belgian, and so I grew up in Lebanon. But as a foreigner, you know, as a, as a there's a word for it in Arabic, ajnabi, which just means foreigner. And then I moved. I actually moved to Japan, because there was a war going on. We moved to Japan. And again, in Japan, my mother was Japanese, but in Japan, they call people whose mother are Japanese, believe it or not, the word for for people like me is hafu. We're called half because we're a group of people. We're known as half who's which mean that we're half Japanese. And then after I went to university in the United Kingdom. Uh, where, you know, I'm a Belgian citizen living in the United Kingdom. So one time Robert and I were talking about this, I think my fascination with the need for connection comes from some personal experience as well of how important it is to feel connected, maybe even from a safety point of view. You know, the extent to which having networks, having connections, is important from that point of view. So I think there's a definitely a personal side to my interest in connection. And the reason we we're talking about listening is it's actually something we can all do well. Most people who are able to are able to listen. So we want to build on that to say to our readers, most of us are listening on a daily basis and a lot listening a lot. And the message of the book is that we can actually listen in ways that increase the chances of connection. And as you were saying, just to add to your reflections about the current state that we're in, you know, loneliness, as we were talking about just before we got on to the this conversation, it's an epidemic. It's a global issue. And one of the things that I would recommend having done some thinking around this is the idea of investing in relationships now, so that when we need those relationships, they're going to be there. And one way of investing in relationships is listening to people, and I know it. It might sound like I'm oversimplifying, but I do genuinely believe in this world of busyness, of social media and a world that's on all the time, somebody listening to us, even if it's for five minutes. It almost feels like a gift Fiona, and I do think that it's something that each of us can do, and that's what I hope could be powerful about this is if each of us take a little bit of time to interact with someone purely for the reason of wanting to find out about them, value them or appreciate them. This could happen in the supermarket. You could be in the supermarket, and it's an interaction with another shopper, the person behind the cashier, you know, just increasing the quality of those connections by being respectful, by being curious about them, by not having assumptions about people, but coming to every interaction, kind of curious and open to what might occur. I think that could be transformational, certainly at that individual level, but maybe even more broadly.
Fiona 17:56
Once again, I couldn't agree more, and there's something I do, and I've done it for a long time, and it really helped me, actually, when I first got here to the US, was talking about the supermarket, is when you actually look at the cashier, you genuinely look at them, and you ask them How they are, and you mean it, their response, I just find, like, 99% of the time, there'll be slight like, shoulders go down a bit a slight surprise, because this person actually is asking me, how I am. They're not just going, how are you? They actually mean it. And you can have some amazing conversations. I mean, we we have a supermarket called Trader Joe's. There's two guys in there that I know their name, and I will always go and say hello to them. I know one loves jazz. I know that he's always lived in LA. I know the other one's studying psychology at a local university, and that's not because I'm special. It's simply because I know the magic and I apply it. Yeah, you get so much back. It's such a good feeling to walk into a place and someone's face light up a little bit because they see you and they know you. So the returns are immeasurable, the feeling it gives you is immense. Exactly,
Christian 19:25
Fiona and you know, in this book, we've really highlighted that we can listen to people in ways that make them feel appreciated, make them feel seen. So a lot of the focus is we have it in our power to listen to people in a way that they feel seen and trusted. But you're absolutely right. We don't talk about it as much in the book, but the benefits to us, you know, the person doing this radical listening, are immense. And this is where it comes back to the human. Thing, you know, this is really a very human interaction. You know, I believe we're social animals, and that moment of real connection, like you say, going beyond the How are you fine type conversation. It's ironic, Fiona, that in many English speaking countries, we don't actually believe that people are asking us how we are. We know it's just a greeting. How are you when somebody asks me that, I don't think they're actually asking how I am. So I like what you do. Fiona, actually saying it in a way that shows the other person I actually I'm genuine about this. How are you? And I'm open to anything that you tell me. I don't just want you to give me the shortest possible answer of fine or not too bad. So yeah, even that's an example, Fiona, of the small changes each of us can make that's going to make connections better. I think that's a perfect example. I don't want to over complicate it. In every interaction, there's this opportunity. And of course, in professional conversations, I'm thinking about leaders and managers, the way they interact with the people in their organization has a huge impact on many things, but the thing I'm most interested in is the well being of the people that they manage. You know those interactions employees might go home in a particular mood, in a particular particular levels of energy or levels of well being just because of a particular interaction. So I like the idea that, as managers and leaders, if we are in those roles, we acknowledge that the importance of or the impact that the ways we interact with people can have on their well being as well.
Fiona 22:01
Yes, and so important, there's something else I talk about my second book is social contagion, which we know is has a stronger influence when it's someone who has status or power or significance within a social hierarchy, like a leader, and there's one leader who is a friend of mine, who I have quoted before, and I will quote him again. He's currently, but not for much longer, CEO of Doc Martins. It's called Kenny Wilson, yes. And Kenny says every single morning before he goes into the office, he thinks, how do I have to be today? Not what do I have to do today? And I've seen the impact it has. People respect him, they feel trusted, they feel appreciated. It's not a fake putting it on. And I think as humans, we're very, very quick to see through when people aren't genuine. And you know, you're saying you don't want to oversimplify it. It is simple. We are human, but we are not we don't behave in a human way because of the environment that we're in, not because we're not good people. And I genuinely believe that people are the majority of people are good people. So it's this reminder of how to be and it's fine tuning that muscle, and like you said earlier, it's preparing for those times when we will need these relationships Exactly,
Christian 23:44
exactly. And I love the doing and being you know, one of my the questions I use for my own reflective practice as a coach is, how do I need to be so that people around me are more likely to want to learn, grow and develop. And I do think that the business of every everyday life, the feeling that it's on all the time, it does push us to think, what do I need to do? You know, I don't have enough time. I need to do what? So I love this idea of, you know, us taking some time out to say, how do I need to be? And you know this, engaging in radical listening is kind of a way of being, of valuing other people. So yeah, thank you for that. I love that example. And again, it's another example of how all of us can make small tweaks to the what we're already doing that will have a positive impact on those around us and ourselves as well.
Fiona 24:54
Yes, very, very true. And I'm thinking in my mind while. Saying. What you're saying is in a nutshell, if you can put it in a nutshell, because obviously it's a whole book, but in a nutshell, and I don't expect a short answer, what are the key elements? What are the things that people will get from reading the book? What are the things that they will take away from it?
Christian 25:21
Yeah, that's a great question. And I will try and do a nutshell version of that, because there are some key ideas. Let me just say, first of all, one of the reasons we call it radical listening is that we think we're moving beyond active listening. And active listening is excellent. And active listening, though, is for us, mostly working on, how can I look like I'm listening, and how can I be fully attentive. So radical listening is actually going one step beyond that, and it's about genuinely being interested and being active as a listener, and not just sitting back and having the correct body language and nodding at the right moment, but really being an active participant in listening. So that's one of the reasons we call it radical listening. And then the the other big idea is that the idea of going into conversations being clear about your intention, and in the book, we identify six different intentions for listening. And I'd invite listeners now just to do a little check in their minds about which is their favorite purpose for listening. We identified three cognitive intentions. One is an intention to learn. So perhaps, if you're listening to this, your listening intention is to learn. So if you're listening in order to learn, trying to pick up key things, you might be taking some notes. So your your mind is focusing on, what can I learn from this interaction? The other one is to understand. That's the other cognitive intention is sometimes, if somebody's giving us instructions, or we're getting directions to go somewhere, we're thinking, Okay, it's not really learning. I need to understand what's being said to me. So that's a cognitive intention. The third one this can be problematic for for leaders and managers, is the intention to solve. So sometimes we're listening and somebody's telling us a problem or challenge they're facing at work. Sometimes we can go into listening with a problem solving mode of I'm listening to get the information I need, so I can propose a solution, or I can come up with a way forward. So that's another one of those intentions. Then there's three social intentions. And one of the social intentions is listening to appreciate so sometimes we can just listen to somebody to appreciate them. So if a family member comes in and says, Hey, I won an award for something that would be a good time to listen with that intention, as I'm not trying to figure out something or understand something, I want to say, just tell me a lot more about that. How did you win it? Why did they pick you? What was and really the purpose, the intention there is simply to appreciate. We think that they sometimes we can listen with the intention of connecting. So you've met somebody brand new. I think a popular misconception is the best way to build that connection is tell them a lot about you. But the truth is, if you listen, that's the best way of connecting. So sometimes you can listen with that intention is to say I'm not trying to solve anything. I'm not trying to understand. I'm not trying to learn. My sole reason for listening intently to this person is to build that sense of connection between us, and we think you can even listen in order to influence somebody. So let's say I'm listening to somebody who's saying I'm not really sure I can achieve this. I always wanted to do this. I think I can listen in a way that builds their self confidence. I can listen in a way that's going to influence them to move forward in that so those are the six intentions that we've identified. And I think the big message of the book is about making sure there's optimal matching. We talk about that term optimal support matching, which is making sure I gave you the example of we want to sometimes solve somebody's problem. If somebody's come to us with a problem because they want us to solve. Of it, then listening with that intention is spot on. But if somebody's coming to us because they just want to be seen, they want to somebody to know, look, I'm really struggling with this. I've been working hard at it, I don't know, then the mismatch can lead to disconnection. So what we're saying in the book is, let's become aware of all the different possible ways we can listen to people and then try to match, do that optimal matching between what it is that's wanted and the support that we're providing.
Fiona 30:36
Interesting and particularly that last example you've given there, there's the what's coming to mind for me is a level of emotional intelligence, particularly when you're talking about managers and leaders. There is that need to solve or management consultants or surgeons or people who their cognitive abilities are very much valued. They therefore fall very much into that I want to solve problem. Yeah, and there's but there requires quite a lot of agility, psychological flexibility to be able to see actually this time this person is not wanting me to solve it, they're wanting me to listen, to be present with them, to appreciate what they're saying. So that's really interesting, I think. And the matching is a great way, very simple way of saying, you know, check in with yourself. Are you matching what this other person's come to this conversation with? Exactly
Christian 31:45
Fiona you. You're the one who's put that in a nutshell. So thank you. Exactly right. And our belief, Robert and I, is that just bringing to our awareness the different intentions, and that's why I asked the listeners here just to do a little check, because maybe we have a favorite, you know, maybe we tend to automatically go to solving, or we tend automatically to go to appreciating. So step one is just becoming aware of these things, and then you're right. Step two is consciously thinking. I wonder what this person really wants from this interaction. And then to go even further, perhaps in personal or professional conversations, you know this idea of checking with a person what would be most helpful for you? Imagine you're a manager, and somebody comes to you with a particular topic. What a lovely conversation to have to say, Hey, I'm here to be supportive. My intention is to be supportive. What's going to be most helpful for you in this conversation? Are you looking for ideas? I can share ideas. Are you looking for validation? Are you looking for just an ear, somebody to be a thinking partner. And again, in the world of coaching, executive coaching, that's what happens in the contracting phase. The contracting phase is really agreeing what's going to be happening in this conversation. So you know, there's possibilities for that. And the great thing about most of the ideas in this book are. The great thing about most of the ideas in this book is that they're really applicable. We think, we think that people read this book and they might say, oh, yeah, that's kind of curious. That's interesting. And we'd invite readers to go and practice them. To say, hey, maybe I'm going to practice. What's it like to just go to somebody and say, I'm going to listen to appreciate them, and find an opportunity to go to a colleague and just say something like, you know, I've always admired how you do this thing. Tell me more about where did that come from. How come you do it like that, or just listening in a way where the the end goal is that that person feels appreciated. And I, I hope it's becoming clear that it when you match, it builds connection. So that's why we're talking about the art of true connection. But problematically, when there's a mismatch, whether it's intentional or unintentional, it can lead to a damage, damaging relationships. And for me, radical listening is all about being respectful, treating each everybody with the respect and dignity that I believe they they deserve. And so just imagine if you're because you're wanting to be helpful, and you're solving a person's problem, if you're telling somebody what to do, who already knows what they should be doing, that comes across as risking a disc. Connection, and we, we may all have experienced it. I'll give you a little personal anecdote of this. I love traveling. I love cars and motorcycles and driving, and so I rent cars. When I travel somewhere, I'll go and get rent a car from one of those big car rental agencies. And the frustrating bit for me sometimes is when the person who's renting the car to me will get in the car with me to teach me how it works and say things like, you need to press this button to start it, and when you need to slow down. And obviously that's frustrating, because I've been driving cars for decades now, but I think inadvertently, we might be doing things like that in the workplace. If we say to somebody, Hey, before you do that presentation, make sure you do this or that the intention actually is a good one. We're wanting to be helpful, but if the person already knows those things. So that's why this idea of matching, kind of getting a sense of what's the most helpful thing I can do in this situation, I think could really be something that boosts relationships.
Fiona 36:16
And such a simple concept to remember, it's so easy to just check in with that, which is critical, because if we can remember it, we can put it into action, and we can use it, and it becomes part of what we do, or who we are, who we are, being fantastic. Okay, I had some sort of more fun questions here. Okay, so what's your personal listening kryptonite? So is the thing that you know would distract you mid conversation? So I would say, for me, it's I get excited about something, and I want to say it now because I'm worried I'll forget otherwise. Yeah, what is it for you? What's your personal listening kryptonite?
Christian 37:09
Yeah, I'm going to be very honest in answering this one, Fiona. But before I do that, the idea of listening kryptonite, we actually talk about something like that. In the book, we talk about the barriers to listening and becoming aware of those barriers. You know, one real difficulty I have with listening is if somebody says something that really cuts across my values, I have to work extra hard to make sure I listen to that person. So one of the things I really dislike is status games. I don't like people trying to show that they're one better than somebody else. So if I'm talking to somebody, and there's a lot of that talk going on, of look, this is how important I am, and you don't know this, but I'm really kind of, and I feel that trying to put other people down that's distracting for me, so I need to really, and yet, I want to be a good listener, and that's really my thing. And they may not mean it in that way, but it's like a little red button for me. I notice those things. I for example, if somebody says something that's racist or sexist, those are, again, big red buttons for me. And so I need to notice those things and then bring myself back into that moment, just to remember what is my intention in this conversation. So those are, are big barriers for me. I think I'm I've become better at noticing when there's something that's getting in the way of my listening
Fiona 39:03
question for you. So on that piece around, let's say racism, I personally also get very put off by that, but I also have a need to correct that person, and I will do that. So I will say, for example, someone said recently something about why, you know, why have we got so many different races in adverts? It's not, it's not representative of the population. And I said, Hang on that. That's actually not okay to say something like that. Yeah, this is why we have this that Neil, so that's probably not the best example. It's one that's come to mind top of mind, but I will stop listening. I will interrupt the conversation, and I will say, That's not okay. Yeah. Is that something that would fit within the rules of radical. Now, does that cut across radical listening?
Christian 40:03
It's the first time I hear about I hear that term of rules. Yeah, we haven't positioned them as rules, but they might. Sorry, that's a bad word to you for no, but it's fun to hear it back like that, because, you know, we're still thinking about the book and how it's going to be presented. So I like it. I like it that you've said rules, there is a chapter one of our skills is called acknowledging. We think it's one of the skills of radical listening. And there's various levels of acknowledging, and at the positive side, in terms of in order to be a radical listener, we think there's these four levels of you can join in. So if somebody's saying something and you're really keen about it, you can just get excited about it as well. That's the joining level. Then there's the affirming level of acknowledging, which is saying explicitly that sounds like a great idea, or I agree with that. There's the up playing, which is, you can highlight something they've said to bring it more into the conversation. And then there's some levels of acknowledging, which include not acknowledging or actively disagreeing and actively challenging. In between, there's what we call flatlining, and flatlining is intentionally not acknowledging or not engaging with something that somebody said. And we might flatline when, let's say, I'm talking to somebody about their wanting to move to the United States. Let's use that example, since it's come up and there are lots of things they're excited about, but they've got a few things they're concerned about. If the purpose is to support them and get them enthusiastic, I wouldn't bring the concerns they have into the conversation, so that would be flatlining. Now I've had literally three or four days ago, I was having a conversation where somebody said something to me that could be interpreted as sexist, and so I had that moment. So I was trying to build a connection with this person, but they did say something that I thought, I'm not comfortable with that, and simply the awareness of the different levels of acknowledgement helped me, because I had a choice to simply ignore it and say, I'm not going to engage with that part of the conversation because I don't agree with it. But it did also give me the opportunity to challenge it. And there's two different ways of challenging it. To just say something like, oh, I don't really agree with that statement. And there is that kind of level that you talked about of correcting it, and with every level of the kind of we have several seven levels of acknowledgement. It's really thinking about what's the impact on the relationship, and what's the most helpful intervention. And you know, is it to call it out? Because I guess we could call something out in public and say, Hold on, there's that other idea of calling it in. Should I have a quiet word with them. So yeah, radical listening also gives us opportunities to be intentional about how do I engage with situations like that? So thank you for bringing that up. It's something that we address. I do think it's a very interesting topic. And our book, I guess, says, Let's be intentional about how we engage in those difficult situations as well.
Fiona 43:48
That's really helpful explanation, and it's great to know that you have that in there. And I like the levels as well as like, how far are you going to take this? Yeah, and for me, with racism, like with you, it's something that I proactively will not tolerate, and I could damage a relationship from that perspective. But yeah, I need to say it. I need to say it exactly.
Christian 44:13
Fiona, sorry to jump in. By the way, projecting is one of our skills. That's one of the other reasons we think it's radical. We think that in listening, in radical listening, jumping in at times is actually a way of saying, I'm really engaged in this conversation. You know, I really like it, and I want to jump in rather than leave it till later. So, yeah, I think calling things out like that is really important, and it's a part of there will be situations when we think this relationship is not that important, that I'm going to let this go. So the key thing is being intent. Professional and saying, You know what, I'm trying to build a relationship with this person. But if they're going to say things like that, if they're going to do things that go completely against my values, I I'm going to end that relationship. The difference is that it's not done by accident. It's not, oh my gosh, I must have offended them, or I don't know what I said, it's I do think a lot around this book is being intentional about the ways that we interact with others.
Fiona 45:30
Again, fascinating. And the thing that that spurred in my mind when you were talking there is, firstly, great, because I'm really bad at interjecting, but I do think there's a balance. It's the needing to rein it back and only do it as intentionally and appropriately as possible. The other thing is thinking about it's just gone completely from my mind. It will come back, but if you could think about the very top tips. So your nuggets, not your nutshell so much, but your nuggets of things maybe say three things, if that's possible, to do on the spot. Which three things would you say people listening to this conversation can take away and do something with Yeah.
Christian 46:22
So one is the idea of matching. So that's something people can take away, straight away, at the beginning of an interaction, or just before an interaction, taking a moment to think, What does my conversational partner want out of this interaction? So I think that could change things immediately. The other is the idea of acknowledging. And I talked about the seven levels of acknowledgement, of just thinking about, in order to keep the conversation going and in order to build the connection, what are the things that I can acknowledge? So it would be like looking for strengths in the other person, something you admire about them, and then highlighting those. So the value of acknowledging is something I want to highlight. And then I think the other interesting thing is this idea of one of our other skills is called Quiet. We think one of the skills is quieting our own inner dialog. So something we can do straight away from now. We talked about kryptonite earlier, didn't we? Fiona is noticing the things that we're saying to ourselves that might be getting in the way of giving other people our full attention. So those are three quick things that I think people can start doing. But really the broader thing, the overarching thing that I like, and it's something that you said Fiona, is just that question of, how do I need to be in the world? And this book answers part of that, because this is a book exploring, how can I listen to people in a way that makes them feel valued and appreciated, how can I listen in a way that builds connection rather than damages it? But for me, it all falls under, how can I be in the world in a way that's good for others and therefore good for myself? Beautiful
Fiona 48:29
and comes back to being a good human. So this is a guide book for being a good human, as it were,
Christian 48:36
I think so. And again, I'm just going to come back to the idea of this isn't something kind of new that's been discovered or anything like that. It's a skill we already have. Many of us are great listeners, and it's just about this being intentional about the kind of listening we're doing in particular situations and our Robert and I, what we'd really love readers to do is just to experiment, to go out and say, Hey, I'm going to practice listening in different ways. And the best evidence for whether this is working or not will come from the other person. Just see what happens when you listen to appreciate for example, people will give you that feedback. People will say things like, oh my goodness to so good to talk to you, or, thanks so much, or I feel so much better now. So please experiment with different ways of listening.
Fiona 49:37
Yeah, and I could even like, capture that if they were going to do it, just sort of capture how much, how good did that feel on a yes, zero to 10 or one to 10, or how much have I impacted other people's lives this week? By the way, they've come back in responding to what I've said to them. They're a nice. I think it's something, again, that's being intentional about reflecting on how is this working, and what difference Am I making in the world? Because people will make a difference in the world, and that feels better than anything else.
Christian 50:15
Can I wrap up with a personal anecdote here. I have to be cautious, because it's my partner I'm going to be talking about. And the one thing she's clear about is she said, Don't bring me into your professional work as an example, but I am going to do it because I just think it's valuable, as I was working on this book around intention and, you know, listening in a way, to value and appreciate. I was thinking, I need to bring this more into my everyday interactions. So my partner and I like to go out for a drive once in a while to go get a coffee or something like that. And usually we're chattering all the time and talking. And my partner might say, these are the kinds of things that are going on at work, and I'd be jumping in with, oh, well, do you know the research says this, or here's a good idea. And I thought, oh, I need to put this in practice myself. So we're driving in the car, and my partner's telling me about some of the things that were going on. And I said, Oh, you know what I'm going to listen to appreciate and acknowledge I just want. And 10 minutes into the drive, my partner's like, What is the matter with you today? And she was so not used to me actually listening in that way of I really value you, and I'm, I'm curious about what's happened, and it was a, it's always a moment for me, Fiona, to think, Oh, my goodness, you know, how have I been listening? And so that maybe there's something interesting there about the idea that we, maybe we do get into patterns of ways of listening with people who are close to us, even. So there's an opportunity there to to change that up as well and just think, well, what are all the different ways that I might listen to even those who are close to me.
Fiona 52:10
I love that story, and I actually think it's highlights the fact that it's often people that are closest to us that we're worst at with it. So I, for example, might go and listen to someone who works in the supermarket, but do I listen to my own husband? I think it's a great example. It's fantastic to finish on. I just want to repeat the book is out March 25 it's a global distribution then, is that? Will that be UK and US?
Christian 52:42
March 25 is the date comes out in the United States, I think a little bit later, a couple weeks later, in the United Kingdom and Europe. The good news, though, is that the audio book is going to be available immediately on March the 25th
Fiona 52:58
Oh, that's brilliant. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, just to repeat people, if they if people want to find you, they go to coach on a motorcycle. You've
Christian 53:13
got it. Fiona, so this is a relatively recent thing, and I've got my Twitter account, or my x account is actually at Christian VN, but I have a YouTube channel called at coach on a motorcycle. I've got an Instagram account called at co channel motorcycle, and the best place to go would be my website, which is www dot cocharona motorcycle.com, and you know, it's still early days, but most, I think everything on there that I've posted, most of the things are available free, so there's little videos. In fact, Fiona in June of last year, I rode across the United States on a Harley Davidson. I rode route 66 took me 19 days to ride from Chicago right through to Santa Monica, and every day I posted a little video of the trip, which hopefully is of interest to some people. And in addition to that, I posted one insight. The idea was to share one insight from the fields of coaching or positive psychology that I had integrated into my own life. So there's a little clip. There's 19 little clips of things that I'm I've learned from those fields that I use in my own life. So if anybody's interested in that, you can just go to my YouTube channel or to the website.
Fiona 54:49
Absolutely wonderful. I'm going to be looking at that. Thank you so much. I've said I've just thoroughly enjoyed this, and I'm. Really excited for the book to come out. You're
Christian 55:02
so easy to talk to. Fiona. I mean, I think there's another bias I have, which is that I really like you and what you're doing. So we had that earlier conversation, so I think that's probably part of it. But you are very easy to talk to. You've asked such thought provoking, interesting questions. So thank you for creating that wonderful environment.
Fiona 55:26
Thank you That's so kind.