Currently a serving member of the British Armed Forces having joined at the tender age of 18, over a 12-year career, Hannah has had to learn many "life lessons" along the way, often the hard way and under high-pressured and unique circumstances. We talk about some of them including stress tolerance and endurance, the fallacy of happily ever afters, the importance of meaning in life and realising how much other people impact us in our daily lives.
Hannah has observed the pop-culture messaging of "love yourself”, “reduce stress”, “avoid burnout”, “safe spaces”, “take it easy”, and “hack culture". All of which are promoted with good intentions. However, Hannah is passionate that these messages lead to adverse outcomes.
Because of her diverse experience and when looking through the prism of a female soldier (or those taking on demanding physical challenges) Hannah promotes tremendous success by doing the opposite.
Hannah is on a mission (pun intended) to convince people to seek out discomfort, to take a leap of faith when feeling overwhelmed by emotions and continually action their goals. Hannah’s simple strategies and lived experience can cut through some noise, helping all walks of life!
Hannah's Bio:
At the tender age of 18, Hannah joined the army and has served for 12 years, including two operational tours in Afghanistan. During this time,Hannahhas lived in Germany, worked for NATO, and was also privileged to serve the late Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on ceremonial duties, including Garden Parties, Diplomatic Receptions, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex’s wedding and the late Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh funeral.Hannah's versatility extends beyond military service. She is also a skilled ski instructor and has participated in various adventure training activities, including parachuting and a military competition where she carried 40 pounds of weight over 40 miles. Also, Hannah placed 2nd in her age and gender group in the military section of an Ironman competition.
Her passion for personal growth and resilience has led her to establish Simple as Hannah, where she hopes to help individuals enhance their health and well-being, build their stress tolerance, and reach their full through regular exposure to discomfort with simple and actionable protocols to help along the way. With her unique combination of military discipline and physical challenges,Hannah is well-equipped to guide others on their journey of self-discovery and growth.
For more about Hannah please go to:
https://linktr.ee/simple_as_hannah
For more from Fiona go to:
Fiona 0:27
Today I am joined by Hannah Roberts. someone I've known virtually for a while, but met in person for the first time recently, which was fantastic because I've always felt a connection with you, Hannah. And it was just really lovely to sit and chat in person. There's just something different about it, isn't that?
Hannah Roberts 0:47
Absolutely. I'm a huge fan of meeting people in person. And, as probably my friends and family will tell you, sometimes a little bit, not not greater texting, but I love meeting up with people. And I always take that option over the internet any anytime possible? Because that's not always possible.
Fiona 1:06
Yeah. And I guess on the positive I wouldn't have met you if it wasn't for the internet. Tell people a bit about you. You've got a massively interesting background, unique in many ways. And you've experienced a huge amount in a short period of time. Yeah. So you, you left school ating, like everyone else does. But your choice them was not to go down the stereotypical route. What, what did you do?
Hannah Roberts 1:45
Yeah, so um, well, I left a sort of secondary school at 16, like everybody does. And I, at the time, I didn't feel them equally strong. Medusas really challenging for me. I passed the majority of them, but it was still a huge challenge. And I thought a levels would be too much for me didn't believe in myself. So I went to college and did an NVQ. I think it was in travelling tourism. And yeah, I didn't I sort of it was the financial recession. 2008. And so I knew that sort of travel industry wasn't in a great place. And I was like, Well, what am I going to do? I was really keen to move away from home, not because anything, was bad about it, but just really wanted to go out and explore. I also wanted to challenge myself still. So my dad mentioned to me, oh, you know, the military sort of train, you get your qualifications as well as getting paid. And at that time, I was like, Winner winner, and also of all the getting to live away and stuff like that. So okay, so I went to the careers office and joined up and yeah, at night started basic training. And I've served now for 12 years. So I'm sort of just joined, just as a way of developing and getting away from home. And here I am still 12 years later. So yeah,
Fiona 3:09
it's quite a big decision to make, because it's not the way you describe it. It's not something that you were immersed in, necessarily growing up or seeing. And so making that decision to switch from something that travel and tourism, to being in the military is quite a big step.
Hannah Roberts 3:29
Yeah, for sure. And I suppose I didn't really give it too much thought I was just so fixated on earning money, but also developing myself and finding an avenue to do that. And the military was was one of them, especially as at the time we were in a recession. And it wasn't just me, who would have probably similar thinking at the time, there was a massive uptake. And people wanted to join the military. And also at that time, there was a parrot, which was Afghanistan campaigns. And again, maybe just a bit of drawn to, you know, wanting to serve and sort of do my bit and things like that. So it all led me to that place. So suppose having just that in a fire just to sort of get away from a little town and village and and just to go and explore the world and the military for me at that time was that avenue to do that.
Fiona 4:25
Did anything about it scare you or worry you? Can you remember?
Hannah Roberts 4:31
No, actually, I think I just was, I think when you join you sort of know that they're just going to take you on a path, you know, it's very sort of planned out for you. So you just sort of have to turn up and do what they say and then you'll be okay. And I think that was just in my head really that you know, I'll join and, and they'll take me wherever that career path will take me and I kind of felt assured you know, the military is a very well established institution. Didn't husband for hundreds of years and sort of just sort of base sort of felt safe, you know, to sort of go away and that they would, in a way, sort of look after me. And, you know, so yeah. So maybe that's naivety at that age. But, you know, I alternate well.
Fiona 5:20
So, you've been to Afghanistan. You've done tours.
Hannah Roberts 5:25
Yes, I did to opt tools of Herrick 19, and the back end of Herrick 20. So, yeah, it was I deployed on my 22nd birthday. On my first one, and then I came back and I have sort of, I think it was I can't remember specifics, but six, seven months, and then I went back out again, for another tour. So yeah, that was very, very unique. But something that in a weird way, I really enjoyed so. And I learned lots, and in many ways it set me up, you know. So, yeah, it was a relatively a positive experience. But I like to add on that, that my jobs were headquarter base. So my first tour was in Bastion, which probably many people have heard of. And so that was a very, you know that the camp was the size of reading, it was multinational. And relative to being in Afghanistan, it was one of the, one of the safest places to be. And then my second tour, I was in the wall, and I did. Again, I was headquarter base, I did a, I did go outside, they called wire meaning the secure camp on road moves. And I used to fly around different locations in Afghanistan, but I was never, I was never what you would call frontline, what you maybe saw was chemical Afghanistan, where they're in the forbs. And are fighting the enemy. I never did that. So again, you know, my experience is very unique. Everyone has a unique experience of their time Afghanistan, sort of please don't base what I'm saying whatever would have experienced that was just my personal experience.
Fiona 7:12
But you were still presumably trained to be able to be on the frontlines should that have come up?
Hannah Roberts 7:20
Yes, there was extensive training. So you do what is called a pre deployed the pre deployment training. And that covers all bases and beyond. So you know, very much in a position where you felt fully trained to do your job, but also go above and beyond. So yes, if there was a chance of coming across the enemy, you'd be able to defend yourself and do everything necessary in that moment. So yeah, of course, there's always that possibility, which we're always trained for. didn't occur in my case. And so, so yeah, I Yeah, it was, it was unique. But I suppose it's, when you do so much training, and you do training up above what was actually expected of me in any of my women's you kind of think, yeah, it was fine. And everyone else was like, Well, you were in Afghanistan, but I suppose that's what you get from, you know, doing lots of arduous training to build you up, or sort of unique circumstances. And a lot of the times, and I can actually, I think it's the same in a degree, I don't know about yourself, but you feel like your training is so much harder than the real thing, the real job are all different and, and that in that you set yourself up for you know, the workplace by actually doing above and beyond what's ever necessary. And I think a lot of people can relate that to even if they've done a course, or a degree or whatever it may be, I find I think a lot of people would agree that training is usually harder than the actual job itself. And that's what I felt my training in the army to go on operations that's precisely what it was the training, it was actually harder than the job that I did out there.
Fiona 9:09
So and a lot of mental and physical training in that respect. It's not a case of just rocking up with you know,
Hannah Roberts 9:23
absolutely. This was years in the making and then also they build your stress resilience in very unique ways and actually fun way so part of the reason why if you notice, were in the military, they might have told you a story where they've gone off skiing for weeks on end, or they've gone and done some hill walking all in Wertheim you think oh my god, like that's amazing. And it is amazing and it's a great perk, but also the reason why they heavily invest in that for numerous reasons. And a couple of the reasons are, what they do is they put you in what I can do You know, challenging situations and a fun way. So learning how to ski downhill walking in Scotland parachuting, and then moments where it's very controlled, and most people receive as fun, you're actually learning how to control your stress, you're controlling how the adrenaline your system being really unsure, feeling unsafe. And you have us You have people around you in their moments, your instructors guiding you through that. And you've also got more experienced people in your feeling of them. And in their moments of essentially adventurous training, you're actually building yourself up for potential operations. Because if you can handle yourself in moments where you want jumping out plain, and possibly that was far more terrifying than anything I've ever felt in Afghanistan, then isn't a occasion does arise, arise when you're an operations be whatever that is, then you, you know how to control your fears. And the more you do that, the better you become at it. And so I did things like that, before I joined, you do lots of arduous sort of challenges, which are essentially fun, or you've volunteered for it. So I did another one where I did 40 miles or 40 pounds, my back with a team of girls. And it was I volunteered for it, it was really, really challenging. And I really, I was very young, and it's most I've ever tested my, my body. And again, you realise how much what you're capable of, really, because it wasn't, I never thought, you know, told myself, I'd be able to do that. And you realise, you have so much more to give, and then sort of situations and again, that carries you through life being in Afghanistan, or just in the gym training in my local town. So yeah, they're very good at training people up and building that stress tolerance. So when you do go into environments that are maybe super stressful, like operation, then you've got the skill set to do that, and the experience, and also to lead in the moments as well.
Fiona 12:07
Well, what I was talking to someone about earlier this week, he's worked a lot with military veterans. And we were talking about different populations. And you won't be surprised it was around mentoring. Yeah, but how in some populations, people's reason for doing it, maybe for status, or for a desire to give back, or all those different motivations that can come into it. But within the veteran community, he said, it will nearly all the time be because people want to look after the well being of the population coming through. Yeah, and the thing that I've always got from think I told you, my dad was in the RAF, my father, and it was different to the army appreciate, but a sense of community and a sense of shared understanding and pulling your weight as part of a team.
Hannah Roberts 13:09
Absolutely. And you all bounce from one another. So one of the things that you do when you're in training is you go into make essentially, you go into the woods and you and you practice like combat, and you can dig a hole to sleep in, and you do lots of defensive stuff. So it's really the nitty gritty of army training. And what you'll find and you you don't, you barely sleep, you don't shower, you don't have a hot meal, and so usually cold, wet and hungry throughout the whole duration. And everyone has their highs and lows, and what you're noticing it in a group is one person will be having a loan, another person's having the art and everyone that person will sort of try and bring the team up in a way when someone else's fin bit down or make that person a broom or something like that. And then that person, you know, was sort of got to learn that person was having a logos and a high and everyone kind of just bounces of one another. And it's kind of that camaraderie that you do all around and then you find as you get more experienced with them environment, you become a leader and then it's really important to be that person always in the middle. And and then again, you know, your person having to bring your team up to the middle and keep everyone balanced and motivated. So again, it's then points in the military, which really put you under that sort of controlled stress of you know, long periods of time being cold and hungry but you just keep going and you realise actually what you're made of. And what other people are made of these are just ordinary people from all walks of life all genders, religions, backgrounds. And we all got an in their moments, we've all got Common Core was being that just getting whatever's in front of us accomplished. And you will work work towards that. And, and you will thrive off each other and then moments to sort of get it complete. And it's really I think, especially now relative humans are having relatively a very good existence.
Fiona 15:21
And you, yeah, and you really,
Hannah Roberts 15:26
and I don't think if it wasn't for the military, I would have ever experienced pushing myself and seeing others push themselves to the limit, and then actually finding, oh, I've got war in me, I've got a second win a third, win the fourth and a fifth wind. And that's not just physically but mentally as well. And that's something that I very much remember in times where I've been a bit tired mentally and physically, and like, knowing that I have got more left to give, and I don't think I would have experienced that if it wasn't for the military. You know, because when I was in training, it was like, I don't want to go home, I have to pass, I want to be, you know, a full time soldier. So, you know, trust me, I had moments and my colleagues had moments where we're just like, what are we doing, while Ives is like pouring our brain and we sat in a hole, and we got days on end, and we haven't slept. And it's just, what what am I doing over life, and everyone has that, and then it and then it goes, and it passes and then you push off, we know that you've accomplished x, y, and this. And I think, again, back to when I go to my ice every day, I go back to my flat, a warm shower, and I remember the moments of the day, you know, people are capable of more than anything. And I think a lot of especially the young generation, now, perhaps not always getting the opportunity to push themselves and find out where their limits are, because they're usually a lot more further than think they are. So that's something I'm quite passionate about. And I'm hoping to use my platform to encourage people to find them limits in a controlled manner, of course, and, and realise they are capable of more than they think. And it's okay to have like moments like what am I doing in my life, and feeling pretty bad. But knowing that passes, if you just keep pushing forward. And like I say, I think people's limits are far greater than they perceive they are. And it's only a moment, sometimes you're forced to find them, and the military makes you find them. But I think you can do that in all walks of life, I found that even in physical training, when I sign up for an Ironman outside of the military, and I found it in them moments as well. So don't just join the army to experience this.
Fiona 17:33
I think going back to what you're saying there about the team and working with other people, has pros and cons associated with it. And this is from a lay person's perspective, or psychological perspective, looking in the pros being actually you're behaving in a way that is far more natural to humans, we are meant to pull together to lean on each other to work together. We're not individuals in the sense that we are as individualistic as culture encouraged us to be. That doesn't mean we're not unique and special. Yes. But then leaving the military, which I appreciate you haven't done but when you're looking at Veterans who have perhaps been more directionless when they join from. I mean, I can think of one person I know who left home at 16 joined the Navy. He hasn't spoken to his parents since then. And he had a really tough upbringing. But then you take someone out of that environment, and suddenly you're in a culture that is individualistic, and doesn't necessarily all together and work as one in the same way. Do you see that happening with people? Because I know that you, you although you're in the military, you have for example, your partner isn't in the military. And so you see both sides of the coin.
Hannah Roberts 19:06
Yeah, absolutely. And I do think many people struggle and that's why there's so many charities, so ex service people because it is a huge transition, especially when you join at such a young age. I mean, at the time 18 You feel or 16 You feel like you're an adult and you know if you really don't and and it can be challenging leaving, even when people have left and they really felt it was the right time for them. They've still struggled in that transition. But I think what I've tried to do is in my downtime is actually do a lot of things outside the military. So I did my Ironman, I do a lot of hobbies, and I meet a lot of people outside the military. And a lot of that has been quite deliberate over the years and I think that's just to sort of get the best of both worlds. So like you say you get that you see The teamwork and you get all the benefits of the military. But then also you're creating a bit of identity outside of your job. And I think that's important for everyone, because we spend so much time at work. And so much makes up so much of our day. And I think having friends and hobbies and interests outside of work is actually really good for us. And I think especially if I'm hugely a big believer in, you should obviously be working something towards something that makes you feel really uncomfortable and challenging. And I think there's nothing wrong with maybe having a job, which is fine, very easy, and you don't really want to push yourself, but maybe outside of that of your job, explore, explore, you know, that's where you know, see a bit of stress seek pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, that can be anything that can be from knitting, and you know, setting up a little business and selling that knitwear. Or if physical challenge or anything it may be, and I think, then you sort of can take the positives from everything that you're doing. So you see the positive workplace and the people within it, take a bit of that. And then your hobby, take a bit of that. And for you know, you can build yourself a sort of a person who's not individually in diversity, but also part of a group. So you kind of do you see what I mean. And then you come quite multifaceted in your character, and you can adapt to lots of different situations, you know, that you find yourself in
Fiona 21:29
which we know is is really beneficial to mental health and well being? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I talk and I've talked to you about this as well, in our passionate agreement. There's the Luckner model of basically, it was built on physical activity and outdoor pursuits of the comfort zone, the stretch zone and the injuries. Yeah. And I, I personally believe as well, it's really important to move into your stretch zone. Yes, one of the things I find that people sometimes struggle with is knowing what's a good stretch versus a bad stretch. Yeah, and where that stretch zone ends and moves into the injury zone, which is negative, where it doesn't, what are your thoughts on that? What have you seen in that respect?
Hannah Roberts 22:24
So I would, I would say, usually, it's probably people not having moments of reflection and seeing where they are, I think it's, it's, it's good that and everyone is this is different. So you're going to stretch out, it's really important that not saying that too long, or lack of support when you're in that zone. So I think it's finding, making sure when you go in the structure in this, there's things around you that are supporting that. So the military is really good at giving people welfare, because they know that if something's not correct in your family life, for instance, like how can they put you, for instance, in an operational environment, it was hugely stressful things around the mob going well, so they're, they're stretching, but lots of things are, you know, distracting them when they're in there. And they know they cannot, a soldier can't maintain what not, some may, but a lot can maintain being in that zone. So that's one thing like support and also good mentors, and we're around they're also good nutrition is a massive thing. And also, if you're going to stretch out and do something mentally, making sure you get physical exercise in the first place, and vice versa. And, yeah, so there's, there's that. So, keeping, if you think sort of yourself, your well being and everyone around you as well being like good when you're in that zone, and then also periods of rest, you don't want to be in there too long. But you find that the more you go in that zone, the longer you can sustain being in that zone because you get used to it and you get toolkit to know, you know, okay, if I do this, that this and that might be a meditation and a walk, you know, to reset yourself in that zone, you can find that you can yet withstand a lot of war and that sort of if you think about a point of resilience, a set point that keeps going up, the more you go in that zone. So that's what my my advice would be and also just don't be afraid to get there stay there because you know, sometimes it doesn't take a lot to get yourself out there and resting you know, just a day at home when your feet up or something like that and you quickly recover. You know, people are so afraid of being burnt out and that but a lot. A lot of the time. It won't take much to recharge the batteries we say both mentally and physically. So yeah, don't be afraid of exploring where that is quite say it's usually a lot. You can sustain a lot more than you think.
Fiona 24:59
I think That's a great answer. And I mean, one thing I would add to that is looking at whether what you're doing aligns with your values or not. Because I think if someone's in a job say they're in, say they're in banking, and actually banking does not align with their values. So they think it's the right thing to do, because it's a well paid job. But that, that puts them in greater danger of burnout, than if they were in a job where they were working even harder. But it aligned more with their values, because then it's working towards something that makes sense to them, that matters to them.
Hannah Roberts 25:40
100%. And that's why I'm a huge fan of people exploring that zone, within their hobbies, because it fits their values and their interests. And what you'll find is that you like for, for instance, I went on Charles Sophie, she has this cycling event where you cycles Paris in 24 hours. And there was something about when I went to work, after returning from doing that, were you just, you find you're just more resilient in the workplace, because you've really gone in, push yourself to a zone, in your own time doing something that fits with your values and your interests, and you build that resiliency, like so I think so many people fixate, they've got to do this within their work profession. But I'm massive believer, if you do it in a hobby of yours, before you know it kind of is developing you within your work persona. And then you also might get the confidence because you're doing all this amazing stuff outside. Or actually, I could go for a different job. Or I can pivot or maybe I can go and get a promotion elsewhere or stay or apply for a promotion in my job that I'm currently doing. So yeah, that's what I was highly say, if someone feels like I don't want to do it within my profession, then, you know, perhaps find a way of doing it and something that grabs your interest outside and let's say doesn't have to mine happens to be physical fitness, but it could be anything. Okay, making. Yeah, book club, if you know anything, I think it's
Fiona 27:15
spot on as it's so true. And the thing that it becomes a virtuous circle, as opposed to a vicious cycle. And you see people, I've seen people a lot over the years who are in jobs that are not right for them. And what that tends to do is undermine self esteem. 100 undermined self efficacy, feelings of self worth. So it's difficult then to see that it's the environment and the job. That's not right, you start thinking it's you. That's not right. Yeah. Which becomes really negative to other aspects of your life. So if you can do what you're suggesting, even if you're in that position, is take a bit more time to do the things that really give you emotional energy, because you enjoy them outside, it starts to build up that confidence again, and it enables you to get that sense of perspective to be able to say, maybe it's not me, maybe it is the environment, and also that sense of self efficacy and confidence, which says, I can do something about this
Hannah Roberts 28:19
100%. And I think, as well, what I'll add to that is sometimes when we come back from a, if something in our life is making us feel very tired and fatigued, and we feel like we don't have the time and energy to maybe do, what we're recommending is I would I would say that, you know, try and put push, push past that voice in your head saying I haven't got time and energy. And even if you just do it anyway, and you'll find that when you just 15 minutes of doing that will go you'll get into it, and then you'll do it and then you'll feel really good. And even though in that moment you felt really tired, you'll feel energised, because you've done something that you've enjoyed, and then you'll even feel again your self esteem will be so much higher because you're like, I didn't feel that I could I don't know, for instance, posts, posts on my Instagram about my, my leasing business and I really tired but I did it. And now you you know, I feel really good. And I'm actually I am taking more and more and then maybe someone clicked on your website link and oh my god, you know, it's working. And again, that just feels that self esteem and and then when you go into work, I feel that it really does translate over and you're going to work with better self esteem and it's sort of it's just catching yourself and then moments when you spiral down and sort of trying to get that spiral back up or and keeping you keeping yourself balanced because you know, I am actually someone who can inspire or quite easily in my head and my thoughts and I've over the years got my mechanisms to keep me keep me balanced and one of them is doing challenging things. I Outside of work, sometimes I go inside. And for me, that's physical fitness. But like I say, Fine, whatever yours is. And I find that just really beautifully balanced. So, yeah, and it's remembering
Fiona 30:10
them, isn't it? I think, even as a psychologist, like, supposedly, I should be like the most high functioning person in the world, which I clearly am not. I have a lot of techniques and approaches that do work that you tend to forget when you're under pressure. And so it's almost just cataloguing them or telling someone you care about to remind you when you're under pressure, that that's what you should be doing.
Hannah Roberts 30:37
Yeah. And again, that's that support network, when you're in these, these zones, to people to, to also catch you and support you in their moments. But also another thing, what, what I'll say is, I think that's so lost, that I actually I am very guilty of is, we love reading stuff online, all these tips and what we should be doing, and it sounds great. And in the moment, we get like a boat, I mean, hits, we feel really good. Like, yes, I'm going to do that tomorrow. But we never put it in action. And there's so and I think, you know, these days, it's so easy to swipe through social media tick tock face things we like, but do we actually ever do what is recommended. So I'll say, when you listen to podcasts, or you read books, just remember to action. And again, I think the best way to action, what they're saying is doing it outside of the environment, for instance, your job where a lot on the line, you know, your job rotation, you know, you don't want to lose your job, do it in something outside, because if you mock up, or it doesn't go quite to plan, when you're trying out these new things, it doesn't really matter. No one needs to know it's not gonna affect your job and income, etc, etc. So, yeah, just massive non action, because I think we talk a lot these days. And like you said, sometimes you have to remember to catch yourself. But the more you do this stuff, the more it will come habitual. So, but yeah, you have to action, action action, and to sort of get things kind of natural. And you building them tolerances or them skills.
Fiona 32:13
Yeah, I think that's another piece of great, great advice. And I'm keen before we run out of time to talk about some of the topics that you're passionate about. So I've got some here, the fallacy of happily ever afters. Say no to chocolate, there is no pleasure without pain, take a leap of faith faith when feeling Olympic friction. And to put a bit of context around that. There's a lot of thought behind these things you've reflected, you've considered. Tell us a bit about where it's come from, and coming from for you.
Hannah Roberts 32:59
Yeah, so I'm someone who likes to reflect a lot on the past, which can be negative, but I try and use it as a positive way of thinking, what, what why did things go right? And why did things go wrong? In any scenario, and know the reasons why that's happened. And I like to read a lot. And listen to a lot of podcasts to find out the science behind it. I am someone who gets incredible comfort from science explains a lot and also makes you feel not alone because you realise that it's just human nature. So quick side note, I highly recommend antihuman, Angie Huberman. He's one of few people I listened to. And he's phenomenal doing that. So just if people go and check them out. So yeah, just quickly, so the fallacy of copy of asters, I think, as a as a woman and someone who's grown up watching Disney films, is that you know, as much as I love Disney. Yeah, as you can see, real life, princes and princesses are not always happy, as we've seen, and over also history, and quite apparent today. And I think that's because it's impossible to be happy all the time. I think, actually, what makes us happy is pursuing something meaningful. And actually, and also, that I realised recently. So I researched recently, that basically, there's no pleasure about pain. So I highly recommend a book called dopamine nation finding balance in the age of indulgence by Dr. Anna lymphie. And I'll give you the book for all the scientific sort of information but what she's saying is pleasure and pain, a lot of seesaw, and they're in the same part of the brain, and every time you do so, something pleasurable, the seesaw goes up, but then what must go up must come down. And so it's really important to realise that so basically, you're never going to be always happy and trying to keep yourself balanced as much as possible. And that, yeah, there's always something to work on as well. So there's never a happily ever after, there's never, once I get my honour my house, my kids or whatever it is you're aspiring for, you're not just gonna be happy. It's this constant journey. And you take your mind everywhere with you. So learning how to have the toolkits to deal with yourself and your personality is really important. So that's, that, and that also goes into the cenotes. Chocolate as a, as a pleasure out pain, I think I get as a woman who used to eat a lot of chocolate. That's one thing to realise, you know, that in moments where we may be craving it, it's just because we want to numb ourselves of discomfort feeling. And actually, we make it worse when we go to the chocolate. So what else did was it that
Fiona 36:07
there were lots of things to hear about? And I think overall, it's I mean, this, let's, let's jump to another one, which I know we've talked about before. There is nothing more dangerous than a board one.
Hannah Roberts 36:21
Yeah. And I say this tongue in cheek, and I'm also saying this from personal experience, that, you know, I'm, I know that I am highly neurotic, I actually did a personality test, I read your book as well. And I realised, I
Fiona 36:35
hope my book didn't tell you, you're neurotic, I wouldn't use that word.
Hannah Roberts 36:40
But, yeah, but I sort of, can be quite anxious and stuff like that. And I realised that the moments is very emphasised. If I'm not got anything meaningful to think about, you know, I might write stories and just stop, be easy to get on with. But in moments, when I'm really busy, and I've got something meaningful in my life, or meaningful challenged, it really sort of focused me you find the white noise and life just goes and you don't get upset with the little things. So I've also noticed that that's in other people. And obviously, I'm a woman. So probably, I've noticed that more women, for men can be the same, but I say it from a woman's perspective. So that's, that's where it comes from. And I just think that people are happiest when not necessarily, when they're just happy all the time. And they're on a beach, have a cocktail, but actually they're pursuing something quite challenging, but meaningful. And so like I say, I'm big believer that everyone should find what that is. It doesn't have to be their careers or, you know, just anything. And I think people are happier. And it keeps you on a, on a good path and doing daily habits that are good for you instead of maybe negative. So yeah,
Fiona 37:59
that's Viktor Frankl famously said it's observed when he was in concentration camps, that it was the people who had sense of meaning and purpose, who were more likely to survive. Yes, yeah. And that's, you know, that's quite a stark piece of evidence. And then on top of that, someone who more recently studied that lot is Todd Kashdan has been on the podcast. He's wonderful. And he talks about meaning in life and has done a lot of research on the impact it has on wellbeing. But it can be it can be hard to find what that meaning is, and what that purposes. And I think the approach that you're suggesting taking is brilliant, because it's curious. It's a journey. It's not a destination,
Hannah Roberts 38:47
as Absolutely. And I think one thing, I'm quite an open person, which is stepping well, because I've always just thrown myself into things or volunteers or like I went outside the military, I went travelling, and Australia, and you just try lots of different things. And I always try, and it didn't really matter if I didn't have anyone to do it with or there wasn't other women to do it. Well, I just sort of did it. And I think that's, and then in that moment, you find what you like and what you dislike. So for instance, I can tell you very much so that I don't like jumping out of planes. I did a parachute. I did not like that. I did not pursue that. But then I found out that I love like weightlifting and things like that, but you have to try these things, but not just like try them once. I mean, the parachute I just tried once but maybe if I actually do or say that but I think if I kept doing it, I might come to enjoy it. Sometimes we don't. I used to hate weightlifting. I used to hate the gym. I actually used to take the mickey out weightlifters And ironically, I've turned into one so. So sometimes it's also just even if somebody doesn't feel great at first, I keep doing it. And you might think
Fiona 39:54
that's interesting because you're showing an open mindedness as well, because you're you're not staying to You fixated on an opinion that you've had? No? Yeah. about yourself and about other people?
Hannah Roberts 40:07
Yeah. I think that's really, really important. Because I think sometimes we try things and they feel really, really uncomfortable. And then we're like, oh, it's not for us. It's like, no, no, it might be for you. You just need to keep going. And again, I won't go into the nitty gritty of it. But if you listen to Andrew Huberman who actually explained that, and I'll let people go and do that research, because he and I'll put that in the show notes as well. Yeah. Because he explains all of that. And it's basically that your neural pathway has to create new pathways, and it's really uncomfortable to do that. And your body wants to stay in home status, it doesn't want to change. So even if so something positive, what this will also why when you when people are addicted, even though they know it's really good for them to start alcoholism, or you know, I know it's very complex, but part of that is because your body doesn't want to change, even if it's changing for the good. So again, it's yeah, just keep trying new things. And like I say, I think if I did parachuting enough, even though I, you know, I didn't like it. I think if I kept doing it enough, I know, eventually, I probably would like it. It's just like, choosing not to. exuding that. But yeah, so
Fiona 41:22
I mean, there's definitely a level of curiosity that's required, because it's, it's a very nuanced fine line between. Keep trying, and it really isn't right for us. Yeah. And keep trying and knowing when actually, we're going to sort of jump over that bit that says, This is uncomfortable to this is enjoyable.
Hannah Roberts 41:44
Yeah. And I think it's researching, like, knowing why you're doing what you're doing. So. So for instance, if it's like a health change, I think it's up to it's up to individuals to do research, why it's good for them, not just a quick conversation with a GP, but really know it, because in their moments where you eat your broccoli, or what I do in my life, you know why you're doing it, because maybe it's having this positive effect, but really understanding it and feeling you know, why it is that you're doing it. And I think that will sort of make you push past that discomfort. I think a perfect example leading to military with that is, you know, the absolutely phenomenal people who lived through the world wars who were in the trenches, or in, you know, in the various uncomfortable environments, they really believe in what they were doing both sides, and therefore, they were able to stick past his comfort and keep pushing forward, literally into gunfire, and the rest of it. So I think that's a perfect example, when really people believe in something, what they'll do, both positive and negative, as far as we know. So again, you know, bring it back to a more sombre point, if it's eating broccoli, really understand why it is you know, that you're doing why. And I
Fiona 43:05
also think the thing that you've referred to earlier, and like that is so important. And it comes back to our individualistic the way, we're encouraged to be quite individualistic. But in reality, we need other people, we need to depend on other people. And we need to allow other people to help us understand ourselves.
Hannah Roberts 43:23
Absolutely. That bird's eye view, isn't it? And I think that's why therapy has been, is becoming more popular, because it gives people that access to someone to give them a bird's eye view in a very objective way. But sometimes it's really hard to be objective when we're feeling really subjective. So yeah, you know, whatever it may be being going into visiting religious leaders or therapy or friend or anything, I think just having someone to give you that bird's eye view is really important. And like you say, even if you were being open, and maybe it's time to call it a day, and that's not for you that someone can give you that advice, and just make sure that person that is giving you that advice you trust as well, you know, because not everybody's perfect for that role. Should we say?
Fiona 44:16
Yeah, yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? Knowing all these different things, I think, and social media makes it worse, we have an expectation that there's one way or another way. But when it comes to our minds or behaviour, even our physical way of operating, that's so many different nuances.
Hannah Roberts 44:36
For sure. And I think that's what I loved about your book. Mirror thinking was realising how much others impact us both positive and negative. And it's really important to make sure that if we know that someone's getting that bird's eye view and maybe there's we can't always avoid being around maybe some people and some people good things are good at some things and bad at others and knowing when moments to distance yourself or not. Mirror people. And that's your sometimes to mirror people. I want you just to throw back at you a little bit that I read the other day that saying the age of social media where we can be led astray, that's actually instead of putting the emphasis so much on social media platforms, actually putting the emphasis to put people in the right direction within our communities and ourselves. I was wondering what you were thinking about that that actually made me to solve this really complex problem of the internet and what's on there is actually empowering people to sort of guide our friends and family and ourselves in the right way and bringing up sort of emphasis back on to people in small communities. I was wondering what you thought about
Fiona 45:42
Yeah, well, obviously, I've got an app that does that. Really. Yeah. But in all seriousness, I totally agree, I think it's about leaning back into where we thrive naturally, which is the sort of environment it doesn't mean, everyone has to run with a burden on the back through pouring rain and not have any sleep. But I think it is really important that we realise it's okay to depend on other people and to be interconnected with other people, it doesn't mean we lose our individuality. And it doesn't mean we're weak. She makes us far stronger, far, far more fulfilled. But it is a complex environment, even offline, trying to read and understand and navigate people. What I personally love about it is, was there's two things one is the fact that it's ever evolving. And it's so interesting, being a human around other humans and trying to understand ourselves and them and how we interact. And what that means. Obviously, I'm going to say that, because that's my job. But the other thing coming back to you, is this continual personal development. And I think it can sound like something that's really daunting, because you're never gonna get there. Or it can sound like something and be something that's immensely fulfilling. Because if you approach it in the way you do, which is exploring, being curious, trying things out, pushing your boundaries, testing things coming back again, knowing when things are, sometimes things do go wrong, and having that level of self awareness that you have, where you can say, Yeah, I do spiral. And being open about that, also, obviously allows other people gives people permission to an extent to be able to help you. Yes. And I think that whole message that you're giving, and the way that you're giving it is fantastic. And you know that I want to continue. This isn't I mean, outside of this podcast, this is this is the continuing relationship. But I think you've got so much to give, and so much to communicate, which is immensely helpful. So I'm really excited to see where it goes.
Hannah Roberts 48:09
Yeah. And I really asked us been thinking recently how I would love to work with sort of more the younger generation and children, especially from underprivileged backgrounds, and sort of give them the support and opportunities that I've had to have this, you know, to explore and be curious. And, and, and also just to get away from the white noise, because one of my most fondest memories is when I was in a when a hill walking through the military in Scotland, and it was a map and compass and it was just some soggy sandwiches in my backpack. And we just went off the beaten track and no phone signal nothing and it is the most therapeutic thing we'll ever do. And it was you know, at times, I was cold, wet and hungry, but it was just something just an absence you before actually, one of the things when I was deployed on operations is you know, I had what I call my house and on the floor I went all my affairs were taken care of and I went out there, you don't have your phone, have limited access to the internet and you have limited access to a phone and it gives you this clarity and in your head and every day you're not drinking alcohol, you know, you haven't you three square meals. Again, this is my personal experience. And you're exercising every day. And you know, I worked seven days a week for months on end. And I was able to maintain that and maintain that with a lot of clarity I did get a bit mentally fatigued towards the end but nothing serious. And it just goes to show when sometimes we have these things in place that how much we can keep going when we take away distractions and we look out for our body. And it can actually even though you're saying someone now work five, seven days a week fine once in a while, but we we could do that and a lot of that is also being incredibly physically fit We went out because even though my job was a physical, I think that physical fitness allowed that allowed that, at that energy came through. So, yeah. So that's what I'd love to sort of where I'm going with this is give that to young people make them sort of see that sometimes just putting the phone down, get it, get it, it's very cliche and getting out in nature and sort of even if it has been a bit old, like our therapeutic meet doesn't have to be a spa weekend, you know,
Fiona 50:28
all and I think it isn't cliche, because I think you put it within the context of what it means it's not just go and take a walk or put your phone down, you're saying it with an explanation of why that's how long the context of whether it's helpful, which I think's a difference between it being, as one of my guests once said, something you'd see posted on a cushion and put on Instagram or something that actually means something. I, I'm hoping that we'll have another podcast conversation at some point, I know people are going to be really happy to hear this interview, we're going to put all your social handles in the notes. If people want to speak to Hannah. Zooming they can reach out or you can do it through me.
Hannah Roberts 51:20
Absolutely, yeah, reach out. And there's also
Fiona 51:23
you, although you're in the military, you're still available for doing things like speaking and absolutely indicating these messages with so if there are business, people, for example, listening, and they wanted to bring you in,
Hannah Roberts 51:39
absolutely. Or even, you know, individuals just reach out, just, you know, always happy to talk to people from all walks of life. And, you know, have a chat, you know, no strings attached. Just, I just want to help people and sort of share the experiences I had. And you know, sort of, like I said to my platform I'm trying to do is just talking to my younger self and knowing that, you know, I'm not special everything, you know, I feel like if I could Chatsworth yourself, then maybe that will help other people, you know, because I don't feel my ups and downs are unique in my toolkit, so unique to do all that. And so I therefore hope, yeah, it can help other people and give them confidence, especially women, because what I'll say is, what I found is women can be sometimes a bit more anxious to go forward towards challenges, it's in our genetic makeup that makes us amazing mothers. So it's not a critique. It's, it's just one of the things that's great in certain situations and bad and others, like maybe we're less open to putting ourselves in unique circumstances. If we don't, yeah, if we don't feel as other people around us are doing it. And so yeah, reach out. And I can give my experiences of overcoming that because it hasn't always been easy to trick myself into situations. And yeah,
Fiona 53:01
and I will add, and I don't mean to embarrass you, Hannah's very attractive as well. And that's quite an interesting one for being in such a masculine and high threat environment.
Hannah Roberts 53:15
Yeah, and again, that's that thing, where I'm happy to jump into my uniform, and scrape my hair back. And essentially, I could, you know, if you see me full fledged exercise uniform with kung fu on hair back everything on I could easily be a boy, but that's where I, that's, that's fine. That's, you know, I fit into the team there, I'm just, and that's your job. And, and that's where you can say, you know, the person you can be outside of work. So me, whereas I, you know, I wear heels, I have my hair down, I like my girly stuff. And you can be lots of different people. And I don't think it's a bad thing that I have my military head and then also in different, different ways I,
Fiona 53:54
I used to express yourself,
Hannah Roberts 53:56
myself in certain different situations in the military. So when I'm a ski instructor versus when I'm out in the field, doing training, versus in the office day to day, and again, outside of work, you know, you can enjoy being, you know, no makeup out in the open, you know, hair everywhere, and actually also enjoy going to the beauticians, and in the hills on you know, you don't have to be fixated as a particular type person, you can put lots of faces on and the more that you open yourself up to lots of different experiences and then you learn how to adapt not being fake. It's just you can be different people just like your psychologists, your mom, your wife, your etc, etc, tennis, playing, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah,
Fiona 54:40
I think that's fantastic. I love I love your messages. I'm going to pull out some of them and lay them back to you as well. Highlight your wisdom. Yeah. And I think the thing that is just beautiful is talking to your younger selves. Yeah, I think thinking of that as a way of conveying information is something that is really helpful for a lot of people to think about actually.
Hannah Roberts 55:09
Yeah, I think I think, yeah, is massively helpful, because then you can use it, you can look back in the past and instead of feeling, you know, like a victim, and you might have worked, you might have been a victim, and some people are, by sort of processing that and thinking, What could I have done different to maybe change the outcome or make things a bit better, and it's not blaming yourself, it's just like moving forward. If this happens, again, I know now, that that direction of what happened could be very different. And that's very empowering, that's not victim blaming that or blaming yourself, that's just, okay. If this something like this happens, again, both positive, you know, if it was positive, you go, Oh, I know. And I used to go that if it wasn't so great, you know, okay, I want to change it. And that's part of growing, and the only way that we can move forward and become better is doing, putting ourselves in challenging situations, going with it, reflecting on it resting and repeat.
Fiona 56:08
And I think this is just using another wording that you've used as that. You have a challenging but empathic message. And I think that's important when thinking back to our younger selves, as well, is being empathic to that younger version, who may we did get things wrong, and giving ourselves that reassurance that perhaps our younger self didn't get from other people that that time and it provides the opportunity to do that, which I'm learning at the moment, through more recent research is so immensely powerful. So it all fits together. Now, I could keep talking to you all day. But I know that you're in the military, and we've already gone over by five minutes. So I'm gonna say thank you so much. As I said, all of your information is gonna be in the show notes for people that want to get in contact with you. And I'll get, I'll make sure I've got the names of those two people that you refer to, and I'll put that in the show notes.
Hannah Roberts 57:15
I recommend and yeah, you learn a lot if you take the time. And they put things very beautifully, and they're very well educated. So I'll say, yeah, you'll be put on the right path following them. Let's put it that way, saying
Fiona 57:28
well, you know, I'm all for evidence based science. As I said, I could carry on talking I'm going to stop, because otherwise I'll keep making it out. Yeah, just say massive. Thank you.
Hannah Roberts 57:41
Thank you to you. I love your books. So thank you.